Emotional texts and emails to the narcissist…just don’t

It’s crazy how deeply connected you feel to them after such a short period of time. I dealt someone for only a few weeks and feel like my best friend died even months later. I miss them and just wish they would get help. I’m maintaining no contact, but I have those moments when I just want to know if they’re ok.

Kim: Can you please advise me what to do? I have not seen my ex in 4 YEARS, I have been completely no contact for about 9 months (yes, I foolishly spoke to him as “friends” once in a while prior to that, always trying to completely cut contact). I changed my phone number (several times…) and email so he cannot contact me that way. However, he found my work email because it’s online and I cannot have it changed due to the nature of my employment–it’s not possible. I block him and he gets new email addresses. This work emailing stopped for quite a while but started again last week. He also keeps sending me gifts and crap through the mail. I do not want to move! The postal service told me there is nothing they can do. Last time, I did not open and threw it away. This time, it said what it was on the box and I opened and donated it. Should I be marking all mail return to sender or would that be breaking no contact? What can I do about the emails? I used to freak out when he sent me things or wrote me and break contact to yell at him but I’m not doing that anymore. It’s been 9 months. He also knows I’ve been dating someone else for over a year. I’m starting to worry he will come to my house. I plan to call the cops immediately if he does this. This is a man who physically hurt me and often threatened to kill my cat and me.

I am going thru this now. It is awful.

What if the narcissist is my adult daughter who uses my grandchildren as a way of control

Once I realized just how shallow and awful he was, I felt I couldn’t trust him with my real feelings. I hid them and kept them protected.

Hello Ms Kim Saeed , hope your doing well . March 13 my ex sent me a email she didn’t ask , she told me to get over her and to leave her alone . I was doing as she wanted , it was a rough , as days would go by it seemed like things were getting better ! March 28 I received a message that I ignored , the 29 of March I receive a phone call I answered to hang up on her hoping she would get the hint , that didn’t work ! She was persistent until I gave in to her because I loved her , I thought she was changing ! Wishful thinking on my part , again for being an idiot I’m back to what seems like the beginning of this torture ! It’s not a good feeling being a man and literally being knocked to my knees by a woman that thinks what she is doing is funny and she could careless the damage she’s caused ! I know I need to build up my strength , it’s a challenge within it self everyday ! I hope one day to look back at this experience and know that I successfully made it through this and I’ll be able to help someone in the same situation and to let them know things will get better if you stick to no contact !

Thank u… i literally did this last week today abd on the ohone today. It started with he texted he missed me. I ignored . I responded something short he called. Then i try to say lets b adukts stop saying u miss me let heal if no hope . Last week was painful . N then bam blame game n im sobbing TRYING to tell him and get him to seem human n understabd the pain again!!! N how hard it is to pick up pieces! He says “u won’t have any problem” and refers to the time i went on a date n lied! How dare i? I hurt him so bad. But allll he dud to me and what lead up to it ! I ran back apologozed n tried so hard to show him i loved him. 2 years later here we are! ?. If u will resevd the stuff or reach out to me perhaps i can get pricing etc. thank u very fitting today of all days!

I know well the email tsunamis. I agree that writing them, and not sending them, is the best approach if you simply must purge. It’s like releasing pus from a boil. Gross, but the same. No healing can occur without removing the infection, and sometimes it takes a marathon surgery to get it all out. It can leave you exhausted and that’s a very good sign. But, I go one step further and destroy the emails after they have been written. I have no need to hold on to the, to examine them, to go back and revisit them. Once I have expelled the venom, I set fire to it and then dust my hands of it.

Kim,
This article about the “tsunami emails” so takes me back! With your experience you have given me that final push I needed to accept he’s not changing, he doesn’t care, you would walk right back into the same old same old, DONT DO IT!!

I think being big hearted compassionate people make it hard to understand how someone cannot reflect on and hear what you are saying about the hurt they caused, but they CANT.
I feel like a newborn baby, with a new life ahead of me and I thank you SO much for helping me get there.
There’s always a silver lining and through this relationship I have encountered amazing people and you are for sure one of them. ?

Weird this just found its way into my inbox. A few hours ago, I received an unwanted message from a “carrier pidgeon”.(formerly well-meaning flying monkey). My former fake friend, who I went no contact with in August, told her to say, “Hi,” from her. I did not cave in to her smear campaign (telling mutual acquaintances I’m withdrawing due to mental illness), I resisted the holiday Hoover (bumped into her at store and she asked to stop by my house to bring my GSDog a Christmas present), etc. Last time I saw her was at a funeral in early Jan. I mistakenly thought she had finally moved on. I told my carrier pigeon that I had no response whatsoever. “Give her nothing from me.” Tonight I was thinking of my carrier pigeon’s need to be a peacemaker and a people pleaser, so I started thinking she may mislead this narc former friend and make up something nice I said, so as not to “hurt her feelings.” I was thinking of sending her a text saying something like, “This is my response to your attempt at a “Hi” greeting. Get over it, Get over your self, and Fuck Off. We’re done here.” I’m worried she will continue using my other friend’s Catholic Guilt vulnerabilities against her and never stop sending “messages.” I’m at a crossroads and wondering if inaction is the safest course of action in this scenario.

Dear Kim, first of I would like to thank you from the bottom of my heart, for literally saving my life and if not my life than at minimum my sanity, my future and the happiness of it. Without your blog and emails I don’t thing I would be here today. You were and you are the beacon of light in the darkness full of loneliness, fear, self destruction, inability to move forward, lack of understanding from almost everybody I knew, except one person who just like me was dealing with the narcissist in his life, and after hearing a couple of things I said about my relationship and it’s problems he straight away knew with whom I was dealing with, you know what they say, you have wrote that yourself a couple of times and I learned later on, after going no contact, once you know one narcissist you know them all. Thanks to my friend suggestion I logged into the Quora website and that’s where I found references to your website to which I subscribed after reading the first article about narcissist abuse. In that very moment everything have changed, the world which stood upside down went almost completely back into its original position. With the first few lines I knew that I wasn’t going crazy, that the thing I was going through and the person I fell in love so deeply and for whom I almost lost my mind, had a name, the narcissist. I learned quickly that I wasn’t alone, that even though this is pretty rare personality disorder at the same time is not that rare, I learned about terms such ‘love bombing’, ‘silent treatment’, ‘gas lighting’ and many, many more.
What surprised me was the fact like similar was other experiences, how predictable the narcissist behaviour and tactics were, my narcissist was the book example to almost everything you wrote. For me that was enough, that thing had a name, his behaviour was predictable, his background and childhood reflected everything you wrote on the subject. I don’t go no contact at first, because as an empath, I tried to help his, I thought I would be able to do it, for 3 months I tried to reason with him, I tried to explain him that what he has done to me and other people and was still doing was wrong and harmful. I thought at first that I was going somewhere with it, he acknowledged it, said he would try to change, he would do this and that, in reality he was planing how to use my generosity, my kindness, how to hurt me and abuse me even more, how to get away with it and make sure that everyone else will think that I got insane and he wasn’t the one to be blamed, he was the perfect friend, the role model he thought and pretended always he is, for he knew what to say each time I would ask him a question, he had all the answers, he understood me like nobody else before, he offered his help, and made sure I would fall into his trap, his emotional, trauma bonding, addiction like correlation. And quickly and incredibly deep I have fallen. For instance after only 3 months down the road of love bombing, i was not able to fall asleep without hearing or reading his message good night, after only 3 months. Incredible, isn’t it. I 41 years old men, pretty strong, both mentally and physically, within 3 months ends up being conditioned receiving a message goodnight, without which I would not fall asleep and think about crazy things entire night. I tried to help him, but quickly I realised that I won’t be able to, that nobody will be able to do that. With my last attempt, with my last generosity act, and his reaction to it, I had no doubt, nobody and never will be able to help him. I called him for the first time by his real name, I said: you are really a person with the personality disorder called the narcissistic personality disorder, I gave wrote to him a coupe of the narcissist main characteristics and gave a few examples of it, ending with the lack of accountability.
I said that this is it, enough, this is my last message he will get from me.I said that I can’t not hate him as he wanted me to do, that a part of me will love him forever,, because of him, whether it was real or not on his side it was real on my side, everything what I felt was real, everything I did I did it out of love, out of love for him. Thanks to that I learned so much about myself, I learned that I am capable to loving somebody for who he is, it doesn’t matter now that this wasn’t true, I knew I was able to love a human being not because of his social position, looks, money in his bank account, house or car he had, but for whom he was, and if I have done this ones, I will be able to do it again. I repeated one last time, this is my last message to you, you will never hear from me again.
Of course his answer was a total denial of everything, he called me names, said that I am crazy, and that if I ever contact him, our friends, his family or family friends he will get the court order to keep me away from him. In the end he wished me well, and added that he hopes I will get well one day, and that he hasn’t got any personality disorders, that he’s only problems are the stress which in majority is created by me and my irrational behaviour. That was his last attempt to get the higher ground, to take control and be able to say, that he was the one who ended the relationship, because of me and my crazy behaviour to which he had enough of. The most funny thing in all this is, that this day when all this has happened I realised that he was with his new supply in his house, 248 km away in his house, when the other guy husband was away for business, and I knew that person accidentally, I knew exactly where he lives, and I knew that because I introduced him to my narcissist myself, and I knew that because I often chatted with him online, through an app which is showing the exact distance between both messaging people . I remembered by heart the number of kilometres my mate was living with his husband, and when I talked through that app with my narcissist not knowing where he is, after another lie, when he was trying to explain me where he is and when he will be back, I saw his distance, the same number of kilometres 248, and click, a voile, I told him where he was and with whom, I told him who he is and that this is the last time he heard from me and bang, I went no contact, and it’s been almost 1 year, 1 long year I didn’t message him and after a couple of attempts on his side, I also never heard back from him. He knew that I know who he really is and what his real name is. I think he got scared and this is way he stopped messaging me.
There are still days when I think about him, about us, about the things which happened and about the love that gave me wings, which he quickly cut. I will never hate him, I pity him to be honest, because it must be really hard not to know what he really is, what he is looking for, and what he will never feel or understood, because it was never his fault in the first place that his parents didn’t do their role, didn’t shown him unconditional love, didn’t though him the prime emotions and feeling which define us as human beings, which give the sense to our life’s and are worth living for, such as compassion, forgiveness, empathy, kindness, generosity and most of all LOVE, which even thought wasn’t real on his side, was very much so real on my, and that’s why I can not hate him, I can only pity him, and hope that one day thanks to such important work as yours, my dear friend Kim, maybe one day we will be able to erased the Ill imprint he has in his head, and replace with the love and all the feelings he should have be given but wasn’t given. Each year we make a new discovery about neurological science, the other day I read about the possibility of erasing our bad self restricting habits, which our subconscious mind learned in the first 3-4 years of our life’s which keeps us alway from becoming who we should be if those barriers were not there, and we would not be afraid to do all the things we can do but we can not, because of our subconscious mind first learned imprints. If we now know that we can get rid of the once which block us and replace them with new ones which finally will enable us to do everything what we were design to do and achieve in this life, then believe me, everything is possible, everything is really possible, if we set our minds on it, everything is possible, even curing the narcissist. And one last thing, I know that not just because I read the article about redesigning our subconscious programs, but since the first day I met my narcissist, the moment we had which lasted 30 min here on Earth and much longer in some other time and space, I saw in the narcissist eyes, the child he once was, I saw his spirit, his soul, I fell in love with it and with him, before he began the known to him love bombing, trauma bonding and later silent treatments he started implementing, before all that happened I saw his pure soul, which isn’t bad and never was, bad ate some imprints he learned what he was 1-4 years of age, programs which potentially we learning how to erase. I am not scientist in this field, but if that’s true than logic suggest me that there maybe a cure for the narcissist, and we may find it sooner than we think.
I will leave on that note.
Once again thank you for your work, for doing and believing what what you doing l, which we all know and can feel it, and because of it everything what you wrote and suggest is so easy for us, victims of the narcissist to digest, believe in and learn from.
I have a couple of other suggestions, so as you say, stay tuned, or did I made this up just now, I don’t know, let’s say I didn’t, so for the last time, thank you from the bottom of my heart, my gratitude and respect will go on for much longer than my life here on Planet Earth. Stay tuned and don’t forget to message back. Take care my dear friend Kim
All the best,
Maciej Krukierek

[…] Blow up their cell phone with nasty messages, send them an email from Hell, get in your car and speed to their house or place of employment to confront them, and burn a pile […]

[…] soon, you’re stuck in a full-on conversation or email tsunamis with this person, which is a prime opportunity for them to try and reel you back […]

[…] with the children or the fact that you’ve begun dating again, and you subsequently sending them email tsunamis explaining your actions or becoming ensued in a long texting crusade–and before you know it, […]

[…] soon, you’re stuck in a full-on conversation or email tsunamis with this person, which is a prime opportunity for them to try and reel you back […]

[…] Blow up their cell phone with nasty messages, send them an email from Hell, get in your car and speed to their house or place of employment to confront them, and/or burn a […]

[…] with the children or the fact that you’ve begun dating again, and you subsequently sending them email tsunamis explaining your actions or becoming ensued in a long texting crusade–and before you know it, […]

Hi Kim im ready to rebuild my life after being no contact from my ex covert narcissist for a long while. Im confused as to why your support groups are through facebook. This is an area that is part of my no contact strategy. It is advised as part of no contact to get off social media. Im confused Kim

[…] your children or the fact that you’ve begun dating again, and you subsequently sending them  email tsunamis explaining your actions or becoming ensued in a long texting crusade–and before you know it, […]

It’s difficult reading my last post on this thread because I was so strong and was able to objectively give good advice to another reader. And here I am again. This really is just a learning process and I’ve been in this place many times before.
My ex had been emailing me about every one to two weeks and I ignored him. It was him claiming I was stalking him and I wasn’t going to respond to that bull. My first mistake was telling myself that if he emailed me with something worth responding to then I would think it over. Well, he emailed me wanting to make sure I was okay. He had heard about a recent job loss- I thought it was sincere. I stood strong, told him I was good and doing well and he had no reason to worry about me any longer. So then he asked if we could talk on the phone. For this first time he asked if we could go to dinner and if I could just hear him out and talk to him and if I’d give him that one last chance. He said that he was making changes with his drinking and he knew that’s why he lost me and he couldn’t stop thinking about me and he had to give it one more shot before completely waking away- he had to know. I hesitated but I agreed to meet him the next day. That day he texted me asking me how my day was as I was heading home to get ready to meet him. I responded but got no reply in over two hours. So after I washed my hair and pulled myself together, I called him to see when we could meet. He picked up the phone and answered with a fake cough and said “I’m sick”. I couldn’t believe it, but I shouldn’t be surprised. I told him I was sorry to hear that and I assume we won’t be meeting and he asked me if that was okay? I said “no, it’s not okay and I’m going to have to end this now. Thank you for your usual bull shit you told me last night and don’t ever contact me again.” I hung up on him.

It felt great. The old me would have offered to come take care of him, bring him food and try to reschedule our meet for another day- when it was convienent for HIM. But I knew this time it was a lie, that he changed his mind or whatever pathetic reason. However, I am quite upset because in our phone convo it seemed like he was fishing for me to tell him I love him and miss him back. And I did. It didn’t feel right because I don’t love him- but I told him what he wanted to hear. I told him about how my life was going and he didn’t tell me much about his other than he had been on 3 dates and none of them were anything special and he thought about me the whole time, that’s why he had to email me. He also said he was worried that he’d reach out and I’d say I was in another relationship and that I was confused between the two men. I thought that was odd. He fished it out of me that I have not been dating. He knew what to say to get the response he wanted. It’s odd with him because he only calls me and manipulates me when he’s drinking. He’s an alcoholic. When he is sober he is the most boring person you’d ever know. I don’t know if he’s naturally sociopathic and the booze brings it out or if he just is that way when he’s drunk? I wish someone could explain to me.

I shouldn’t have responded. I should have stayed strong like the past few times and I should have never answered his phone call. Now his ego has been fed that I miss him and love him. But I know my truth and I only said those things because I was prodded and my defenses were lowered. As much as I want to email him and tell him nothing I said was true, it won’t matter. He’s done this before, he asks to see me but then he cancels the next day. So it’s very hard for me to know if he’s just a coward and he meant what he said, or he just manipulated me to get my hopes up and then crush them. I feel so stupid. I’m going to up my NC game and block his email now. In the mean time, I wish someone could give me some insight. I’ve never known for sure if he is a narc since he only is abusive when he drinks. I just don’t know.

I did just this. Sending emails and texts even after he had physically assaulted me and threatened to do me professional and reputational harm after I found out he had been cheating on me should I ever tell anyone about our relationship and what he did to me. He told me no one would believe me. Even when his new woman started harassing me and intimidating me at work I was hoping to salvage something. Get an explanation, an apology. I have moved 500 miles away now and still can’t believe the way I was manipulated and brainwashed over a 3 year period. Even when the police have investigated what happened to me, gave me a domestic violence worker which has helped me understand the abuse I experienced I find it hard to understand why I allowed myself to be manipulated. Even when I have seen the 16 pages of lies he wrote about me after I reported his abuse I still didn’t understand. Why would he lie? Why would he include in his lies evidence of him lying about me to his new woman and therefore showing me that the police were right that he manipulated the new woman into intimidating me. I stopped writing to him or contacting him in any way 3 months ago. Blocked him completely. But it is only now with physical distance that I can see the impact this man had on me. I was throwing up before going into work, scared of what he or she might do to me. I was scared to drive around my neighbourhood after she tailgated my car with him in the passenger seat smiling and me driving with.my child in the back of my car. I was scared to get out and live. Being physically away I feel free. I can walk without being scared I might see him. Drive without fear of someone driving recklessly and perhaps injuring me or my child. The panic alarm the police gave me for my house offered me reassurance but also made me anxious, if they gave me this then they knew I was at risk. Now I am free at home again. This journey or chapter has been an awful one. I am trying to move on and forget but flash backs to things he said and done that I thought odd come back to me. How he used sex to punish me. Words to upset me and control me. I am so angry at myself for being taken in by an expert manipulator and pathological liar. But I was. I have paid the price, I have uprooted my job,,house, childs school to escape. I am lucky that I have been able to do this, even though the physical (I’ve been ill for weeks) financial and emotional costs have been high. I am hoping I can now truly move on with my life free from fear, free from anxiety, free from the emotional, psychological, sexual and latterly physical abuse. He fits the blue print of an abuser, he groomed me, taught me to accept, be loyal, keep his secrets. I was dumb, that is the hard part for me. To realise just how dumb I was to put up with lies, deceit, crumbs. Then to miss it when he discarded me! To miss the abusive behaviours! To crave his physical presence, to be held, to have him to talk to, I loved him, people find that hard to understand, tell me I didn’t. But I loved the man I thought he was. The man who appeared vulnerable and in need of my support. The man who could make me feel amazing. But also amazingly bad.

Healing is slow and painful. I stopped looking at the web feeds until today when I realise I still need support and understanding from others who have been through similar traumatic events, I have made huge progress, but the scars are there and still hurt. Baring my soul to him after he abused me didn’t help, didn’t change anything. He ignored my emails. Instead had his new woman harass me. With him playing a pet too, Thank you kim, and to the many others who have shared their experiences which help people like me to take the different steps to move on and heal.

Hi Kim,
I have been quietly following your site for some time now, mainly towards the latter stages of my four and a half year long-distance relationship with a covert narcissist. Your blog has been a saviour through many particularly dark moments of late, and I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for giving me the validation that I have needed for so long.
I had been in a very manipulative and controlling relationship for years, and I finally broke things off with my ex after he tried to emotionally blackmail my life savings out of me so that he could buy himself a house – I was also caring for my dying grandmother during this time, which he naturally couldn’t care less about – and I had been going no contact since the breakup around four months ago up until this weekend. I had just started to feel like I could actually recover from this nightmare, the glimpses of my pre-narc self were starting to shine through after years and years of misery – their timing is always just so impeccable!
He contacted me off a number that I didn’t recognise, and I should not have taken the bait, but I could not resist. He tells me that he is starting a new job very close by to where I live, and I have entirely crumbled. It was so out of the question for him to live anywhere but his hometown (approximately 70 miles away) when we were together, and he absolutely wouldn’t hear of living and working near where I live – it would be me having to move there if we were to have a future, and I was always the one making the journey to see him, never the other way around. There is no doubt in my mind that he knows exactly how much this would have meant to me had he even gestured this months or years ago. He absolutely knew that this seemingly innocent update would entirely break my heart all over again. I couldn’t stop myself, I sent him a really honest message about how much he had hurt me, and quoted things he had said to me in our last conversation. I asked him to respect my wishes and never contact me again, to which he merely responded “ok”. I know that wearing your heart on your sleeve with these people only results in it being ripped apart in front of your very eyes, but I suddenly felt like the vulnerable, weak person that I had become when we were together. I craved just an acknowledgement from him of what he had put me through, not even an apology or anything, and I know that that will be the last thing that man will ever give to me.
I really don’t care if I will bump into him now that he is local, I consider myself a strong person, and for me, it’s more to do with what it stands for than anything else. My panic attacks are back, and I can’t stop crying. I feel like I need to escape, but I just can’t – he’s back in my head now after a few weeks of respite, and it is absolutely killing me. My thoughts are feverish, and I go from fantasising about working things out and being back together with him, to desperately just regretting ever meeting him. I want the pain to end, and I feel like there is nobody that I can really talk to about this that understands. It’s got to the point where my family and friends have quite bluntly told me to get over it and move on, and if only it were that simple. I am having some CBT sessions which have so far been helpful, but I feel as though I crave more warmth and comfort than the clinical interaction of a therapist can provide. It’s really starting to feel like there is nobody that I can confide in and just reach out to. I know that in time, this open wound will heal, but I just wanted to know if there are any almost quick-fix strategies to calm these spinning thoughts and feelings?

Your insight always comes at a crucial point in time almost like you read minds. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences.

Awesome again Kim!! Yes, your words are exactly what I have done and experienced and never knowing why until I made contact with You and your incredible insight and knowledge taught to me on this website! Thank you again Kim, you have helped me more than you know! 😉

i love the post today, Kim. I also love your new site 🙂

Great post, been there, done that (too many times to count). My narcissist ex’s favorite thing was to bait me with several text/e-mails in a row, making it look like he was desperate and in pain. All that just to get me to reply, and for him to see he still had some power over me. When I finally broke down and responded though, he’d put the dagger to my heart by completely vanishing and not reply to me anymore at all… And I would sink into a hole of despair and self-loathing. He is by far the most emotionally cruel person I’ve ever met in person. Stay strong everyone who is struggling! Stay No Contact. Healing thoughts//LifeInAshes

Couldn’t agree more!!!

gosh… I can relate to all of the above… thanks for the post and thanks to all for sharing the experiences

Love this!!!!

Sent from my iPhone

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I honestly feel like every time you post, its like you know what is going on in my life. I made the stupid impulsive mistake of breaking the no contact rule and regret it. Its been over a year since i ended it with my ex but it had not been an easy recovery. He has used me when no woman wpuld pay attention to him messed with my head and treated me like trash. And yet i still gave in and gave him the attention he wanted. I have moved on and found someone new, i went back to college, i am getting straight A’s…it is great and yet, i think about him constantly. I feel like it will take an eternity and a day to wake up and not care what he is doing or if he still thinks of me. The most recent occourence with this horrible person was in the beginning of june. I got a text from him that said something like “our love is too pure and deep to throw it away we should work on this” i told him i was seeing someone and he does not make me see why i should leave this new lifei am leading to go back with him he said “you are right” and we began to speak for a week. It wasnt anything romantic, i think he just wanted someone he knewwould care about his progression with tattooing and everythjng else hes been up to. Week two passes, week three passes…nothing. I knew what happened, he founda girlfriend. I toldhim thAt keeping incontact was very unhealthy for the progression of strengthing my well being and he says he wants the best for me, but then continues the vicious cycle. He told me “you are crazy, you must have done some deep snooping to find out since we havent posted anything on each others pages” i said i know your cycle i didn’t need to snoop. Low and behold it was an instagram girl that had followed and liked pictures of him and his art since day one of us being together, how funny. October, two years ago he asked me to marry him and although thats another disaster story, i still thought of it and it made me sad. So i gave in, i texted him something like i hate that october makes me think of when you asked me to marry you and this is where we are now….no answer, which if he did answer i honestly have no idea what i would say or do. Then this friday…i see he got married to someonehes o ly been dating since the end of June. My heart sank and so many emotions flew around my head i felt so sick. I stillfeel kinda weird about it but i also feel a relief and alsoat the sametime i hope that his marriage fails. Am i childish for thinking that?

Yep! I’ve been there. Then the toxic shame after!

This is exactly what i needed to read today as i alllllmost texted my ex last night, after a good cry and a good sleep and now reading this, i know that no matter what i say will not change a damn thing.

Don’t do it … he’ll NEVER understand NEVER