The Paradox of the INFJ / Narcissist Connection

so sorry to hear you are going through this. It’s not impossible to get out. Extremely difficult but not impossible. What you are experiencing is learnt helplessness, because he has put you through so much. It makes you feel hopeless that you can’t get out. And the part about falling for his bs every time, that’s due to Trauma Bonding. The combination of cortisol and oxytocin through the rollercoaster of highs and lows creates an addiction. You will crave him, even when your common sense knows it’s wrong/devastating for you. Breaking that addiction takes time. I understand your mind and psyche and soul feel trapped in the dark cloud of hopelessness and confusion of smoke and mirrors. But there is an escape for you. There is hope for you. There is light outside these lies and illusions for you. It may not seem like it because the narcissist traps our mind in hopelessness with their web of lies. But that web can be untangled with the faintest of faith and belief in yourself: even if that belief in yourself seems “ridiculous” or “unrealistic” or whatever else that inner critic installed by the narcissist says. Your soul knows that those are lies.

I’m an INFJ and grew up as the scapegoat with two narcissistic parents (one overt, one covert) along side my older brother who was crowned the golden child at birth. I suspect my brother is covert but not as extreme as my mom. My brother and I are very different with respect to how we see/react to the world. I believe being born highly sensitive and growing up with narcissistic wounds lays the groundwork for INFJs. The abuse and constant gaslighting further conditions one’s body to be on constant alert and I think coupled with LLI (low latent inhibition) magnifies intuition (the brain naturally processing more stimuli). Plus when dealing with duplicitous people, I feel that strengthens one’s ability to detect microexpressions, slight changes in vocal tone, and deduce intrinsic motivations.

I also recognize that the golden child potentially suffers from emotional incest (my mom treated my brother like a peer most of his life and would seek emotional comfort and validation from him). He also felt compelled to meet crazy high expectations and is very perfectionistic in some things and completely clueless in others. He, like my mom, must maintain a perfect veneer and seriously cannot take any criticism. I think in his mind, he was never allowed to fail. I’m not sure which came first; I was deemed the outcast or acted like one. I do remember never acquiescing to authority and always questioning why… this could have hastened my parents’ inevitable alienation knowing that I wouldn’t fall in lockstep with the family dogma.

So obviously it requires nature and nurture to produce INFJs and narcissists. However, I truly believe having that extra sensitivity and intuition (more mirror neurons and oxytocin) is the defining differentiator.

What about the covert narc who’s an INFJ?

As a INFJ who was married to a Narcissist for 20 years, you probably aren’t wrong. I did undergo extreme spiritual growth as part of the process – and I think my Ex got the Karmic justice deserved. I don’t think many INFJ’s in the same circumstances do as well. So take that as you will.

Our brains produce electricity, enough to power a small flashlight. Electrical energy is both positive and negative poles. So we are all bipolar biologically, the question is, to maintain balance for clean energy, and its positive and negative, not positive “o”r negative poles that an immature mind thinks…I guess the neocotex is the flashlight.

I don’t agree all scapegoats become narcissist. Some theorize it’s the golden child who becomes the narcissist. I think either one can become the narcissist or the codependent. It depends on the child. I believe the weaker Personality becomes the narcissist. I like Ross Rosenberg’s work, but I don’t agree with him on this. From my own personal life experience I have seen a golden child become narcissistic and a scapegoat child become narcissistic. I have also seen a scapegoat child become codependent.

Kim I just recently tested and got INFJ. I just started researching why narcissist go for these personality types.

Ive come to realize that my ex girlfriend was almost exactly like me and after the relationship I have learned so much about myself. For instance I’ve learned that its ok to think highly of myself and acknowledge my desire for attention, to charm to be outgoing and not shrink away as I was doing in the past. These things are ok when done without bad intentions. Also, too much to mention, a whole slew of personality traits I had during young adult and childhood. It is funny how we were the same ,yet different like we operated on different systems. She was like a dark mirror to myself

[…] Source: The Paradox of the INFJ / Narcissist Connection […]

I’m what you guys would probably label a narc, or “bad empath” but honestly I’ve been trying to help this empath learn how to protect herself, and she has been learning actually, she actually attacked my emotions and caused me to go insane and I roared out like a lion, but she was doing it by repeatedly saying a lie to me, well it’s complicated because even though she is far more empathic, she also has narc tendencies, we both have narc and empath tendencies. She craves attention from EVERYONE it’s disgusting, even old men, I’ve been trying to help her develop a sense of self, not to be so insecure and people pleasing…… I don’t know why someone like me is viewed as an enemy, if you stop to look at yourselves, you would see you also have a lot of growing to do, it’s too bad that I have to be the bad guy who forces you see that.

I’ve known that I am an INFJ for a few years now, but I never really delved into what that meant until some extreme soul-searching and introspection after a terrible marriage that (thankfully) only lasted a few months to someone who apparently has some sort of psychopathic issues (NPD, BPD, Histrionic disorder, etc. – not sure what or which, as she refuses therapy or counseling). In retrospect, she had all the signs of a psychopath. I had no clue what a psychopath even was before we split, but looking into it now, I see most all of the signs; whirlwind romance, quick commitment, her lack of empathy, her false facade she presents to the world, the triangulation of others, the lies, the snooping, betrayal, and once behind closed doors, her vitriolic yelling and criticizing of me and my children, emasculation plans and control tactics began. Since the split from the person that removed her mask shortly after the vows were said, I have learned a great deal about what an INFJ is and how one thinks, and I can say that I can see about 90% of what an INFJ is within myself. I also see these exact things that attracted this psychopath to me, and also what attracted me to her. And in retrospect, I also see these failures that I have had in the past in a similar light, in which I was the “good man” that just wanted to help. She even told me that I am a “good man” and that I “saved her”. While I, and my closest friends do indeed know me as a good man, I can also be perceived as a bad man by those that cross me and betray me. Once it’s apparent that my efforts in relationships were pointless, and that I was the only one trying to help, repair, and nurture, it is very easy for me to withdraw into myself and push the offender out of my life totally, and sometimes brutally. An INFJ can be your best advocate, but when pushed far enough, will be your worst enemy. Looking back, this learned ability to “door slam” someone that’s bad is what saved me. I called her out on her lies, stood up to her bullying, and suggested marriage counseling. She texted me two days later that she had left (yes – texted!) I guess this was when she realized I had nothing to offer her. I didn’t have the money she evidently thought I had, my children aren’t the perfect saints she thought they were, and this humble, kind man that she through she could take advantage of? Well, it turns out he isn’t the pushover she thought he was. The discard was quite easy for her, and why bother actually talking face-to-face when a simple text message will do? Of course, being the INFJ I am, I had apologized profusely, admitted all of her criticism as fact (even if it wasn’t) and tried to work things out. Nothing I did, wrote, or begged for worked. Then I read something that made total sense: one cannot reason with an unreasonable person.
Yes, I am an INFJ, and yes, this psychopath was drawn to me for this very reason. I let my guard down early because I thought we shared many commonalities, and because I thought the differences would go towards making a well-rounded partnership for life. Unfortunately, those commonalities were all lies and mirroring of myself on the part of the psychopath, and even more were things that I assumed were in her simply because I tend to project my own goodness upon others. The differences were simply the parts of her mask that had worn thin through the years and revealed what was truly behind that mask.
The worst part? She tells everyone that wants to listen that I am the psychopath. If they were only there to see who started the fights, how she would bait and bash, how she would use sex as a control tactic, and worse than anything, how she tried to use my children and even God in her psychopathic plans, they might see the true demon behind her mask.
And now, I figure I’ll just give up. It isn’t worth the pain any longer to try to be the helpful, trusting “good guy”.

Dear Kim, I thank you for your blog. It has been revealing for my soul. Sorry, my english is not my first language but I would like to write a comment.
I´m INFJ/HSP/empath. My mother is a narcissistic person as my first boyfriend. The emotional wounds are so strong. The same that all of you. I have a question. I´m lost. I think I´m loosing myself. I think I´m never going to be happy although some things can be better. After a lot of disappointments in my life ( for people and bad luck) I´m very closed to life.Like if I have open my eyes and feel “Oh my God, what´s all this?” I´m really scary, I don´t want to meet people because I think maybe he/she is a narcissistic or risky people.
I am very natural trusting and I have found that people made me harm. So now I don´t want to believe in nothing and nobody but at the same time I´m feeling that my soul is dying because the nature of INFJ is goodness, confidence, innocence, believe in people and life…so how can I do? How can I recover to myself? I have a beautiful son and I want to go with him in his life. I would like to teach him all the beautiful things in life but now I don´t believe in them because I´m so hurt. Can I believe that I can be happy if I can see that the most of the people have a mental disorder or they are narcissistic ( it´s scary when I see they are more than I thought) or they don´t understand most of the things I can see. It´s like I had a third eye.

Greetings,
I purchased your “How To Do No Contact Like A Boss” since I have now left my husband who I believe suffers from NPD. We have been together just over 4 years but only married 4 months. After we got married, he changed. Although he wasn’t the man I fell in love with for quite some time, it seems that his meanness became more deliberate. I read in the book or one of your blog posts, that INFJ personalities are either targets or attracted to people with NPD. There was a link in the back of No Contact book to take the test. So I did. Guess what….I am an INFJ. I wasn’t surprised. To say it simply: I had what he doesn’t possess so he took all of mine from me, so I have none of it left. I chose to leave now instead of later. I will soon be in my own apartment in 4 days. I am so thankful I have the resources to leave while others may not. I am so ready to be free of him. Thanks for reading.

Here’s my theory (paraphrased from Human Magnet Syndrome & Alice Miller):

Those who are disconnected from their Self, for whatever reason (that list can go on for days), are faced with 2 distinct choices stemming from childhood patterns relating to our caregivers growing up.

1. If they SUCCESSFULLY please their caregivers, a co-dependent is born. Their identity is shaped by giving/pleasing outside of themselves, outside their true self.
2. If they UNSUCCESSFULLY cannot please their caregivers, a narcissist/borderline type is born. Because they were unable to please, they had to hide their shame by creating this identity.

The energy vampires (Narcs/Boderlines) will feed off the “willing” codependent. It’s truly a dysfunctional dance that can go on for a lifetime if mindfulness is not practiced. Both feel they are doing what comes natural to each of them.

Keep in mind, these labels are just that..labels. That is what the ego wants. I use them for simplicity sake, but the term is arbitrary. Call them “forks” and “spoons” if you prefer. The bottom line, is we as children were forced (for survival) to escape our true selves. For whatever reason, it was not ok to be ourselves. As kids, our egos viewed not being heard as death. Rather than dying (which our ego is designed to protect us from), they developed a “false self.”

This took many. many years to figure out. Long list of book, articles, and soul searching. I’m not a coach or in the psychology field at all. Just a marketing guy who is looking to start his own business and ultimately discover his true happiness. I hope this reply finds everyone well.

I love this post and the comments on this post!

“Will the Narcissist ultimately be punished (via Karma or eternal damnation) for their evil ways, or will they be forgiven for the gift of spiritual transformation their victims often undergo? Are the heart-wrenching lessons the victims learn some kind of divine intervention?”

I think this confuses things, actually. The victim’s lesson and opportunity for transformation is presented by God, and their exercise of their own freewill and reaction is between them and God alone. The fact that the Narc has made herself a tool of “the devil” does not mean she gets to take any credit for the victim overcoming the perils of evil.

It is the job of every human being to discover, understand, and share LOVE. Those who are not doing that aren’t “doing their job” – in fact, they are expressly NOT doing their job. But we are not the be all and end all — the fact that horrible human failures can lead to beautiful things points directly to a higher power.

So, in conclusion, each person’s choices are his own relationship with himself & God (or whatever you want to call it). That means the Narc is sewing poison, and the victim (who triumphs – not becomes a repeat abuser) is sewing virtue – and they will both reap what they’ve sewn.

what are estj

I am an adult female INFJ. I’m also the daughter of a narcissistic mother and a codependent father. I definitely think my empathy, ability to read people, and drive to make others happy/comfortable/their best selves stems from my narcissistic upbringing.

People are attracted to those with their same chemistry. I am an INTJ/INFJ. So I will usually be attracted to these types or those with similar chemistries, regardless if they have a mental illness or not. My kids’ fathers are both feelers. Again, this is a nature thing. What makes people become narcissists/psychopaths is faulty nurture. People with the “feeling” function require more nurturing than those with the “thinking” function. When the feelers as infants don’t get real love, as they grow, they seek out nurturers, protectors not only because they are usually their same chemistry, but because they have a lot of love to give the spiritually empty. My younger sister is also a feeler and she became a narcissist while I didn’t. We had the same upbringing. What I think made the difference was when we were little, I didn’t get pampered or spoiled. I didn’t get a lot of love but a little consistent bit. On the other hand, my dad (also a narcissist) spoiled my sister and when he abandoned us, no one continued to spoil her, but the damage was already done. This business of being on empath/hsp is more complex than attracting narsisists/psychopaths, depending on our neurological wiring/chemical makeup we’re also prone to illnesses like fibromyalgia, hypochondria, allergies, sinus infections, and bronchial infections. I study astrology not so much for predicting the future (that area I leave to God), but to understand how it affects me as an empath. I’m a virgo (neurotic and susceptible) so I naturally will have hypochondria because I can feel the physical infirmities of those around me. My moon is in pisces so I can feel the emotional states and spiritual charges (positive or negative) of those around me which can make me very uncomfortable. Logically, I’m not afraid of the situation that is causing them but physically, I can’t take the vibrational bombardment and I feel like running from the situation for relief. As humans, I believe we’re made out of chemicals, but I also believe that we are spiritual, whether we can accept it, understand it or not. Our parents gave us faulty love because that is what they received as children. I’ve also given my children faulty love, but it is our responsibility to learn what real love is and to start giving it to others. To me love is caring for and loving someone without controlling, fearing or catering to them.

I was a religious Christian for the last 24 yrs until recently. I don’t attend church anymore but I believe in God and Christ more than when I was religious. I am an INTJ/INFJ. So I can be scientific but my mystic seems to beat out science. I barely found out I was an empath earlier this year along with being an HSP. But I knew for quite a while I was an INTJ/INFJ. I didn’t know anything about narcissism/psychopathy until four years ago when I had a bad breakup with a boyfriend I now know was a narcissist. His behavior didn’t make sense to me, aside of it being very painful to me. Before that, I now know, I was married to a psychopath (the father of my children), his behavior was even more contradictory. It got to the point where I started thinking (he helped me – dark humor) that I was the one who was crazy. So I went to the psychiatrist. They reasurred me that I wasn’t crazy but they didn’t tell me in detail that he was (maybe because they’re not supposed to or maybe because they wanted me to keep coming back $$). The point is that I didn’t know what mental illness was until 8 yrs after that. Being an intuitive and picking up info. from everywhere (science/ universe), I can now see that mental illnes is a spiritual illness. For lack of real love, infants/children evolve as narcissists and psychopaths because a huge spiritual and emotional void is created in them. Deep down inside, I feel compassion for such people, but on an everyday basis, I cannot let my guard down. I’m also barely learning boundaries, too. I, like all empaths, can feel the sadness, pain, anger, anxiety that these people emanate but block out. It has at times made me very miserable. Being an empath makes us prone to depression, so now we not only have to deal with our sadness but it gets compounded with that of the narcissists/psychopaths. I have another empath friend who has actually developed non-cancerous cysts in her abdomen from being continually around narcissists/psychopaths. When I finally had my spiritual awakening 4 yrs ago. I felt the presence of a good entity in my room during my grief after the breakup. I really know that we’re not alone. When this awakening happened, it freed my mind to think what I want consciously and conscientiously. Religion shuns the occult but I started studying psychology and astrology for it’s metaphysical information and deduced that the 12 signs are an extension of the five temperaments: melancholy (seratonin), choleric (testosterone), phlegmatic (estrogen), supine (oxytocin) and sanguine (dopamine), which are chemistry. I believed that we are naturally born with our temperaments and typelogy, our brains are already wired a certain way, our neurological systems are very complex (empaths/hsps/infjs); however, the faulty nurturing throws us into what I call the leftside of the conscience threshold where narcissism, psychopathy, entitlement, arrogance, shame, etc. are located and on the right side of the threshold, where out of God’s mercy, I am and most of us are, are goodwill, altruism, empathy, faith, gratitude, etc. are found. Like you mentioned, some narcissists and psychopaths were born with the wiring to be INFJ (and they can show empathy but it’s more on instinct than benevolence), but because of the lack of real love, they are stuck on the left side, on the dark side. I have visited 12 step programs and I have witnessed the slow but steady awakening of narcissists/pscyhopaths who are really making an effort to change, to become conscious and concientious.

This site talks about how science is now attributing our temperaments to the seasons, science is still behind – they like to do things the hard way 😉

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/11171567/Season-of-birth-affects-your-mood-later-in-life.html

[…] Saeed believes the narcissist may be attracted to a particular personality type that is revealed through Myers Briggs Personality testing. INFJ – Introverted iNtuitive Feeling […]

Wow Kim. I think i love you, actually infact i know i do.
<3 after almost a year. I just now discovered your blog. It is for me the most helpful.

Now back to this article. I am without a doubt a cross breed INTJ with F & E
"…you appear to have marginal or no (1%) preference of Thinking over Feeling,"

FROM the site http://www.humanmetrics.com/personality/intj

"…however, is that INTJs really want people to make sense. 🙂 This sometimes results in a peculiar naivete', paralleling that of many Fs — only instead of expecting inexhaustible affection and empathy from a romantic relationship, the INTJ will expect inexhaustible reasonability and directness."

This is where my Narc-Ex got me, my need for reason, at the very beginning of meeting this man we were dating and i could see was confused i did not respond to the love-bombing. He dissapeared for a while and came back no more love-bombing, but,, instead i got what i would call intellect-bombing. We had grate convos etc mixed with love-bombing (after all i still wanted affection right?).

I learnt that excluding my narc-mother i have through life rebuked a few narcs, but this one i sense in my gut that satan sent him to me on a mission.

I feel bitter…it is a horrible disgusting feeling (makes me feel dirty)…when that is not there overwhelming sorrow brings me to tears. Your videos are helping me even after 2 days.

I almost burned them as a releasing ritual, but I am glad that I kept them now that I know my early suspicions in our relationship were true (true to form, I let him manipulate me into disregarding my intuition) but I kept writing assignments he had for a meditation class he almost ended up failing. I couldn’t relate to why he was having so much difficulty writing about meditating, and I was easily able to interpret what the professor was requesting, but I know now that meditation is reflecting on the self and observing the observer. It requires honesty. I honestly don’t think he was actually meditating at all. We meditated once at a Buddhist center together and he said he was thinking about being victorious at volleyball. I spent time in a float tank and loved the peace and stillness and controlled dissociation, he had always wanted to do it because of the film Altered States. I was so euphoric and proud of myself that no mental demons (self doubt, recrimination, self loathing, fear) surfaced and was proud that I could be that still for an hour in the dadk floating in space. He seemed like it was boring. He suggested that maybe he needed to take hallucinogenics to get something out of the experience. I was disappointed that he was disappointed. I don’t know if he really disliked it or was just being negative because I had been so positive or because I am the one who gave him the gift certificate. But basically, I think that INFJs have a talent for self reflection and being able to apply our Ni to others situations which is a inverted form of the projection the sociopath does. They have zero ability to self reflect and so see others as empty shells like themselves, so they see nothing wrong with maltreatment because we are all shadows themselves included. Its why he spent way more time and energy on me than he usually would with other dupes and he briefly fooled himself into feeling human by way of my energy. Hes not as attractive so his options are more limited and generally preys on very obese women. I think he felt like he had finally found his soul mate in ke because I was pretty and good in bed and outgoing and able to easily connect with others. I thought he meant what I meant when he would talk about potential for the future. Sadly, I came to figure out that he envisioned me as his perfect rape bait, the only means to get the pretty young girls to have sex with him. He hit on a young hippie girl in front of me and after she was creeped out and left, he asked her name (apparently sociopaths have pretty bad memories mine has always been superb) and then asked it again a few minutes later. By this point I was tired of ignoring my Ni so I gathered my feminine power and said “if you can’t remember a woman’s name, I am sure as shit not doing it for you. I am not your fucking wingman”. His response was to dominantly pull me by the crook of his elbow on my neck (hes a foot taller than me!) and say “what are you talking about, you were born to be my wingman” and thats when I realized his fantasy of us traveling in a van/rv wasnt some far future retirement plan, he was imagining a cross country rape tour starring me as the perfect rape bait. now that I have enough distance (its been a week since we spoke) and I am not self medicating constantly with pot to quiet my intuition, I am able to put all the pieces together and have had several epiphanies about myself and the entire world. Part of me still hopes he might be human and one day will break down the walls but I believe he really is a sociopath. He always talked about being a Buddhist because he lives in the now, but I practice mindfulness that is why I am able to remember things. His now is sociopathic and shallow. So beware anyone who claims to be a “natural buddhist”. His dad is the same way. Couldn’t understand why I or his mother use a mindfulness bell to bring our focus to now. Because we are so busy processing stuff that we sometimes forget there is a now. But thats what the sociopaths do, they spin you around so you are trapped in depression for the past or anxiety for the future and we forget the now, where we can effect real change to make the world a better place. Buddhism and unperverted Christianity are cures for living with sociopaths among us. Prophets show us how to free ourselves from the sociopathic Influence on our consciousness that makes us slaves to our desires. False prophets are sociopaths who want to keep us ensalved. So once an INFJ awakens and as long as they dont get suckered by another sociopath, they can actually reach enlightenment about the nature of reality and illusion. I think thats ultimately why thr love hate us so. It is something they covet that they will never have – an enlightened soul that finds strength in love. To them love is the ultimate weakness and their love for us makes them hate themselves for being weak and needy. Thats why they love projecting the air or self reliance. They know they are completely dependent and unable to survive without being parasites on humanity and they are jealous the rest of us can Interbe (back to Buddhism that doesn’t believe in being separate of one another). I believe that historical Buddha and Jesus were INFJ just like MLK, Gandhi, and Eleanor Roosevelt. It sounds grandiose and savior complexy but I don’t care about other people’s perception anymore. Image management and appearances is The Way of the Sociopath. I don’t want to look like a good person, wear a mask of perfection while feeling hopelessly broken inside. Thats what keeps the apaths under control of thr sociopaths. Difference is INFJ because of our functions, we are able to recognize the sociopathic influence on our psyches once we come out of the cocoon so we can be full empaths. The sociopaths of the world rely on apaths and apathy to allow thek their control and influence. It takes balls to recognize the Emperor’s new clothes are made of patchwork human flesh. Its lonely outside the Matrix. Its a small clan, but it’s our responsibility to awaken others. We just have to be careful because those asleep are dependent on the sociopathic police and nanny state systems of control. If you guys don’t listen to Tori Amos you should. She will bloe your mind. Shes also INFJ and she sees the layers. So many artists are straight narcs but some are INFJ and their art is catharsis and a path to follow. I once saw a venn diagram with Narcissism and crippling self doubt intersecting with art in the middle. I plan to write to try to liberate others but I also have to do it on a practical level (Tori is a RAINN activist) so I don’t feel like I am trapped in narcissistic masturbation like the false prophets. I won’t be happy with anything less. I am grateful for the sociopaths for showing me the value of thr empathy I have been suppressing in order to fit in their twisted reality. No more.

I have been trying to figure this out, as I have just emerged from a cocoon enveloped by a sociopath. I want to use a metaphor (us INFJs love our poetry lol) that has just come to me… I see us as Sookie from True Blood. She is drawn to the vampires because she cant read their thoughts and it is a breath of fresh air to be around the silence. Because of our extroverted feeling, we are drained by others emotional stafes. The N/s types arent as draining (until they take over your life). Its thr Ni that makes us feel crazy because we ignore it at our own peril (and anyone with Ni who suffers gaslight ng will feel crazy. So we are then trapped between our desire and our self interest. Theycan be angels if we allow ourselves to learn the lesson… Dont try to be a sociopath if you have empathy because it will make you ill. Thankfully this has been a wakeup call to arms for me. I will cloak myself in love and give to the suffering people of tue world who are incapable of seeing the destructive influence of the sociopaths of the world. We are here as natures counterbalance to pure evil. It’s a huge responsibility but I am not truly happy if I shirk that responsibility in any way.

Reblogged. Great conversation here!

[…] wanted to repost a blog called The Paradox of the INFJ/Narcissist Connection.  So many interesting things to consider as we all continue to understand and […]

Oh and btw I am an INFJ also. Apparently they only make up 1% of the population and interestingly enough N are supposed to take up 4%

My ex is a Libra and every man I have fallen in love with was a Libra and none of the others were N’s. I could see the Libra traits in my ex and actually almost didn’t date him because of it but in typical N fashion when I said I didn’t think we should date because my track record with Libra men was not great. His reply was, “What sign do you want me to be?” I thought that was so sweet. LOL little did I know it was going to be one of the last times he ever said anything truthful.
But why I am commenting is because I think they are born that way. I have no doubt in my mind actually. Maybe mild narcissism can be from childhood but I believe that if a person is born “normal” and it is their upbringing then there should be a way to counsel them out of it. If it was ever not broken then it should be able to be healed. To my knowledge not one, ever has been cured of being a narcissist. Then in my mind it must be a birth defect.
Dr. Robert Hare has studied Psychopath’s for 30 years and he has done brain scans that prove the Psychopath’s brain is different than the brains of “normal” people. They simply do not possess the part of the brain responsible for empathy, compassion etc. Like all disabled children they have learned to compensate for their disability and developed their ability to imitate and read people’s emotions. I do believe they are empath’s in the way they know what a person is feeling, they know when a person is hurting, they know how to use a person;s emotions against them. You have to understand emotions in order to do that. The thing that makes them different from typical empaths is they don’t care that the other person is hurt. They use their exceptional empathetic skills for evil and to better themselves whereas the rest of us use it to help people . I think it depends on how we define empathy. Empathy is the ability to sense what a person is feeling, but not necessarily care how a person feels. Does that make sense?

I think how a person is raised definitely affect how the Narc or Psycho path functions in the world. I think good parenting can help them learn how to be more convert in their abuse of others whereas a N who was abused as a child might be more vocal and obvious in his abuse. My ex was raised by very loving christian’s and he is a very convert N, passive aggressive and uses the religion card to his advantage. He plays the naive, christian boy who naively gets involved with the wrong people. That’s how he gets away with all the stuff he does. he also learned early on that injuring himself is great for attention and getting out of trouble.

Dr. Hare says there is no cure for narc/psychopaths. I have a friend who’s b/f was badly beaten with a baseball bat to the head. He should have died but didn’t. He was extremely damaged mentally though. I had not known him prior to the attack but my friend has read my blog and she says he was just like my ex, for sure an N. But while he was still in a coma the doctor told her that the part of the brain that controls a person’s compassion etc was severely damaged and that what type of person he was prior to the attack he would be the opposite if he lived. For example if he was miserable, mean, unhappy after the attack he would be happy go lucky, kind and loving. But if he was loving and kind prior he would be mean and miserable after. Well, he was the sweetest, guy after the accident. like a child though, she couldn’t leave him home alone because he could wander off and get lost.

But she said the doctor was right, he was exact opposite of what he was prior to the attack.

That makes me think that Dr Hare is on to something. The brain did not develop normally.

I also think to a degree it is inherited. My ex’s son is ADHD, OCD, and a bunch of other disorders but not Narcissistic. His sister is Borderline PD. His sister is a full blood sibling but she was raised with their mother and a step dad, my ex was adopted and raised by Christians. They didn’t meet until they were adults. His son did not meet him until he was 15 so there was no influence there. I think that when the DNA of some couple are mixed they create a toxic combination. just like some couples have a higher chance of having a mentally challenged child or other defects.
JC’s mother went on to have 2 more children with her second husband and they are totally normal adults and had normal childhoods.

I also think that if JC would have been raised by the step dad he probably would have been beaten as a child becuz his step dad is a no nonsense kinda guy. I think many narcs that had abusive childhood were abused because their behaviour was so unacceptable and the parents were ill equipped to deal with a child that refused to listen to any of the rules.

well that was a mouthful
Sorry for taking up so much space. I find it fascinating

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It is so good to find this site and read your writing, Kim. I identify with you, as an INFJ/HSP/empath. I also have a relationship journey characterized by care-taking on my part and abuse (beginning in a childhood that contained significant elements of emotional neglect and parentification). I’m so glad I’m not alone and I thank you for sharing from the bottom of my heart. I have also thought long and hard about how the paths of the N and the INFJ could diverge so dramatically, in terms of coping strategies. Part of me can’t seem to help feeling that perhaps INFJ’s are older souls than N’s, although I guess that is an excellent example of the the kind of superiority complex that my ex-partner always said I exhibited. Anyway, I read one theory (where, now, I do not remember) that suggested that INFJ’s, as the prototypical “gifted” child, were able to successfully help their needy and developmentally immature parents, and as such were rewarded for their empathic behaviors. N’s, on the other hand, were not as successful, and early on decided to reject the whole idea of relating to other people, deciding that they are OK and other people are not. I’m not sure that one can say that an N is a “bad” empath — to be empathic at all one must be able to acknowledge the independent existence of people other than yourself, and perhaps a truly character-disordered N is not capable of this. Certainly both types have trouble, I think, developing a truly adult ego state; for gifted children (again, I mean this in the sense of Alice Miller’s work) the false adult develops so early and so skillfully, it blocks the development of a true adult that can fully integrate the needs of the entire personality system. For N’s, I think something similar happens but that it involves a false parent instead of a false adult. I’ve been reading about transactional analysis lately and all that it has to say about the parent/adult/child dynamics of the individual psyche and I feel much closer to an understanding of things, but in the end, there is mystery (thank goodness). Bless you on your journey, and I look forward to reading more of your writing in the future.

Sorry we’re off topic here Kim, but Peter, have you ever done any research on borderline personality disorder (bpd) or histrionic (hpd)? They all have overlapping traits. I had a bpd wife for 10 years. BPDs have narcissistic traits but they are emotionally unstable, to say the least. I find NPDs to have more emotional stability. Also, BPDs have a serious fear of abandonment, and they cannot be alone for long. They will always maintain a significant relationship, wheras NPDs can possibly do without a significant relationship as long as they have other sources of narcissistic supply.

Regarding astrology… for much of my life I was completely skeptical. I am usually skeptical of anything supernatural, unless I gain some type of personal experience which tells me otherwise. And I too, have wondered whether there was a seasonal/geographic impact on the development of a fetus. But if that is the case, is astrology merely a consistent correlation to our seasonal changes. And aren’t our seasons determined by the position of the earth relative to the sun. I think however you look at it, it’s the same.

This emotional connect/disconnect thing was the only way that I could actually understand her behaviour.. she did have some very strong NPD emotions (happy sad angry and boredom) but she could literally switch these on and off in an instant as an additional defence and manipulating mechanism. She did this without ever noticing, “unconsciously”, it was totally her nature. And even if the emotion was switched on, I think she didn’t experience them as her own, but as something “out there” in the outside world, shared by everyone.

That’s something I noticed with another NPD too by the way, they don’t experience their emotions as their own, they believe that it’s something out there, shared by everyone and apparent to everyone. So from their perspective it actually does seem like they can and do change reality using their mind. I guess ideas like the Law of attraction were invented by narcs and psychopaths too because they actually see the world like that, but it’s only an illusion.

Yes the connection of signs and narcissism is surely an interesting topic. I must admit that I don’t believe in anything supernatural, so to me, only about 20-30% of Astrology seems to be true (although that part is often shockingly accurate), I see it simply as a seasonal biological phenomenon – depending on which 9 months we spend in the womb we will have a unique brain/mind development in places far from the equator – the farther away, the stronger the effect.

I’m pretty sure that the sign Pisces produces the most pathological narcissists. But yes, there are quite a few in Virgo too (although I’d say in Virgo sociopathy is more likely).

Leos not really – Leos are usually normal human beings who have (way) too much “healthy narcissism” but it’s not the pathological form at all. Leos have this inner well of light or whatever 🙂 as one of them explained to me, that keeps them happy and proud of themselves 24/7. It’s a built-in fusion reactor in most Leos. And so they always need attention and praise but pay little attention to others etc. it’s just a personality type.

One last thing… I think one’s natal chart needs to be read as a ‘whole’. I think most people will find some negative or challenging planetary aspects within their chart. But when there are several that ‘couple’ together I think they tend to amplify themselves, and some aspects are balanced out by others.

Here are some of the planetary aspects for my recent ex… the Leo, which speak to some of her self-destructive behaviors. You need to look at all of the aspects and when combined, I think, can lead to a narcissistic personality.

-57 Square Jupiter – Pluto
She might be tempted to exploit others.
She is rarely satisfied with her achievements unless they are big. She is an opportunist.

-75 Square Venus – Uranus
She looks for new sensations in love and is often unsatisfied by affairs which quickly turn into purely conventional relationships. She likes novelty, adventure, the eccentric: she is frivolous, unstable, unfaithful. Marriage is not for her and, if she does throw herself into this adventure, it will end in divorce, written off as a youthful mistake. As a result of her numerous love affairs, she makes sure her line is continued.

-46 Square Mars – Neptune
This is a challenging position, as you have difficulty trusting in your ability to go after things that you want in a direct manner. It may also be that you have difficulty pinpointing what it is that you want, or that part of you doesn’t feel you deserve it due to a basic lack of self-confidence. You fear rejection as well as criticism, and often use roundabout means to go after what you want.

Your imagination is so powerful that it can be hard to trust your instincts. You easily imagine things going wrong, just as you easily fantasize about good things! Your desire nature is strong yet also very suggestible. You’re attracted to mysteries and intrigue. Sexual experimentation is likely, as you are forever addicted to sensuality and unusual or perhaps even what many would consider perverted sexual scenarios. However, your sensual appetite might be much like a bottomless pit, and you could find yourself forever in a state of wanting more, tiring of regular sexual scenarios quickly, and endlessly searching for the next sensation. If an addiction to fantasy is present, you can find yourself constantly chasing a new and more complicated fantasy. It is only when you get into touch with your heart and discover your true desires that you realize that sensations are merely sensations–not deeply satisfying or fulfilling. Fears of sexual inadequacy can be great with this position, and you may either deny yourself as a result, or overcompensate, seeking out experiences in which you are pretty much assured positive feedback. Some of you will experience both of these extremes in your lifetime.

Although you can be very creative at keeping your motives and personal agenda hidden–in fact, many of you seem on the surface of things to be quite gentle and yielding–you might eventually become resentful if you feel the need to resort to sneakiness in order to get what you want out of life. If you do feel resentment for giving up your power to someone else, learn to avoid giving it up unless you truly understand that you are doing it for yourself, and not for someone else. Resentments have a way of building and distorting themselves into ugly matter if you don’t deal with them properly and directly.

Peter, I hate to stereotype and I certainly did’t mean to imply that all scorpios have emotional issues. I’m sorry. But I have met many scorpios that seemed to have emotional issues. Also based on personal experience, I’ve been in relationships with two women that were near the leo/virgo cusp, and both had very similar personalities… being very narcissistic and attention seeking. Actually, there is much more to one’s astrological profile then their sun sign. I’d recommend looking at your natal chart, which will show all the planetary aspects which impact your personality. I was born on Dec. 21, so I am on the sagittarius/capricorn cusp. My natal chart is very accurate. I’ve spent an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out who I am, who others are, and why. I’ve come to the conclusion that MBTI, western astrology, chinese astrology… There is truth in all of them, and if you overlay them all, you’ll get a fairly accurate description. You can view your natal chart at this site (you’ll need to input your birthplace and date/time)… http://astro.cafeastrology.com/cgi-bin/astro/natal

Mine was an Aquarius-Pisces cusp, which is possibly the most scary thing imaginable, I think. We have four seasons here so the effect of “birthday” astrology is really strong here.

Made me wonder a lot. People born at the end of the winter are born with the most emotional deficits, the typicial Aquarius is known to often be actually disconnected from their emotions in a very literal sense (actually every Aquarius I have known was quite like that, but it always only turned out after a lot of time). And in the sign of Pisces spring finally arrives and things start to get better emotionally, but for many Pisces, still only on a quite superficial level.

So with an Aqua-Pisces cusp we may have someone who is not only a narcissist, but even has a split from her narcissistic emotions, and can connect and disconnect to them at will. It’s a two-level something, I tell you, I have never known or have never even heard of anyone who was like this girl. But damn, in the end, after figuring all this stuff out, I learned far more about what it is to be human, and what “normal” means and how “normal” works, than I could have with anyone else.

Ps. I’m Scorpio, and we are quite crazy and deluded yes, very hard to resolve our internal issues but it can be done sometimes.

Kim – I really want to thank you for sharing your story, experience, and suggested healing. I first ran across this narcissistic/infj topic on a search, but I see your site has so much more information. Thank you 🙂 Taking a broad spiritual view I do believe we all have roles to fill in our lives… and I think there is a reason why there is an attraction between INFJs and Narcissists. Both people are meant to learn from the experience. I myself have at times during the grieving process demonized my ex, but on some level I know that they are suffering and flawed as are many people. Unfortunately their flaws drastically impact others, whereas our flaws have less of an impact. I believe our personality type can appear weak, but we’re able to reflect and learn and recover through strength. Emotionally sensitive people have more strength than they realize I think.

By the way, I’m curious to know the astrological signs of everyone’s ex Narcissists? Mine was was leo, which are known for having narcissistic tendencies.

Hi Guys,

I’m fresh out of a 18 month relationship with a narcissist (definitely covert and alternating between somatic and cerebral). She broke up with me 1 week ago, and I am still reeling. I too am an INFJ. She broke up with me after a night and morning of horrible intuitions on my part. On saturday of last week I finally spoke to her and immediately asked her if she had cheated on me. She denied it, and then asked why I would think that. I told her I had some incredibly weird vibes the previous night and that morning and then she broke up with me, no emotions, just discarded me. I think she knew, that somehow, I was onto her and she panicked thinking I was close to discovering the truth… that our relationship, her apparent loving demeanor, her professed fidelity, were all a lie. There were many red flags along the way, and my intuition was right, but I ignored it damnit! 1 1/2 years wasted! But not entirely… I’ve had some ‘aha’ moments this past weekend, one of which is that she truly is a narcissist, but some others… That I am possibly co-dependant and possibly an inverted narcissist (someone that only has romantic relationships with narcissists). I say this becauause reviewing all of my past relationships, I realized that I have broken up (within an 8 month time period) with every person that was considered normal and all of my long term relationships have been with emotionally unavailable people (either borderline or narcissistic). Mind blown! And, I believe, my first serious relationship which was terribly emotionally abusive possibly created this co-dependancy and gave me my fear of abandonment. But now, for those of you who are at rock bottom, myself included, we have the chance to heal ourselves and to correct these recurring relationship patterns. So in some way, my narcissist ex has given me the gift of re-birth…. enlightenment. So in some ways the grief is worse because we’re mourning the loss of our hopes and dreams, but we’re also struggling with the fact the we loved someone that didn’t exist, as others have said. But in other ways, the grief is somewhat bearable, because this truly is a situation where “it’s not you, it’s me” applies. N’s are essentially animals operating on behavioral survival instincts, using primitive coping mechanisms to get their narcissistic supply. Her discarding me, has nothing to do with me as a person.

To Kim:

Been two years, well actually it was only a one year relationship and I ended it the day everything I found out the lies.. I’ve been lied to about everything everyday for a year and I didn’t notice it at all.. no red flags or anything, on the contrary, she seemed much more normal than normal people.. I was never so shocked by anyone in my life I think, how could I have been so incredibly wrong?

I immediately ended it but it took like 1-2 years to get over it, and it still keeps popping up every few weeks in my head. Not because it was that hard to deal with per se – I have another problem in my life that is several times worse than this so I’ve been fighting all my life – but because we just can’t process what happened with our normal human minds. I wrote about why I think this is so in greater detail in the response to Dawn. Even with extensive research and a lot of work put into it, we need at least months, years to figure and sort things out, and the repercussions of such creatures among us are huge, the INFJ needs to rethink absolutely everything about life, humanity, history, and put everything together differently – in our worldview everything is connected and affects everything else.

My narcissist woman is a covert narcissist, noone knows it about her. She herself doesn’t know it either I think. She seems to have an angelic personality, concerned with the welfare of others, completely selfless, idealistic, strong, warm, everyone loves her completely. And none of this is true.

I think she lied so well because they have no concept of reality. They actually believe their lies, they don’t even see lies as lies. They think that what they think or say is real, so they can change reality with their thoughts or words, even the past. This is completely crazy and out of this world, but seems to be true, I think that’s how they see it..

My father too is a more or less covert pathological narcissist or something like that. Well he sure doesn’t have empathy, only now am I starting to understand what effects this had on me and my life.

Meditation is good, I also use a CBT technique on paper to figure out problems in my thinking or in common sense in incredible depth, I learned to be my own psychiatrist or something like that (from the book Feel Good from David Burns). Also the videos of Sam Vaknin are quite useful, he is a pathological narcissist with extremely high IQ who tries to get his narcissistic supply from trying to have the best insight in the world into the minds of pathological narcissists.

I wasn’t under surveillance but the narcissist refused to let me go for another year, constantly tried to get us back together, it was cruel but I used this obsession of hers with me to try to destroy it psychologically, and test every non-human method on her I could think of, eventually she couldn’t take it anymore and gave up, disappeared. And all during this there was never a sign of conscience in her, not even fear of exposure, it’s really weird. They can’t even be threatened because they can’t imagine the future or something like that.

Yes, Peter, I can definitely see what you’re saying. It makes sense. I cannot wrap my mind around how a narcissist “thinks” or perceives the world!……at all! And, believe me, I’ve tried.
I could go through my entire life without ever yelling at anyone, including my children. They’re grown now, but it was simply not my style to yell at them when they were children or teens. It never made sense to me to yell, scream, throw tantrums, verbally harangue, belittle, or disparage people, even during heated disagreements with them. Yet, my N husband acts like a 2-year-old whenever he doesn’t like what I say, or whenever I happen to disagree with him. He throws things, breaks things, threatens to kill himself, screams at the top of his lungs, calls me horrible profanity-laced names. I am so sick of it, and as an INFJ it is slowly destroying me. I have lost all of my self-esteem. All of it.
I need to get out of this relationship. I don’t know how. I’ve reached the point where I don’t believe anyone could ever possibly want me or love me. I’m not young any longer. I just feel so discouraged.
I will say this, though…….and I am agreeing with Kim……my relationship with my husband for the past decade has opened my eyes to the reality of narcissism, emotional abuse, and boundaries. I learned more about life and relationships from living with this man than I ever learned by reading a book. There’s nothing quite like excruciating psychic pain to force one to desperately search for answers!
When I first met him, I knew nothing about boundaries. I also knew nothing about narcissism and not much about psychopathy. I began a quest to learn as much as I could, reading everything I could get my hands on. I discovered that my SF was a verifiable psychopath with sadistic tendencies. I finally had an awakening and was able to understand why I had suffered so much from PTSD symptoms since my early childhood. And I discovered that my mother was a narcissist. My husband definitely has something major wrong with him, and I vacillate about whether or not he fits into the narcissism or the psychopathy category.
I often ask myself, “Where do I go from here?” I never once in my life had an adult to turn to. Seems I have always been on my own, to figure things out for myself. I wish I’d had someone…..anyone……aunt, uncle, teacher, coach, grandparent…….take interest in me and show me the love and kindness every child deserves. But I didn’t get that. As a consequence, I live with such deep inner pain and loneliness. I think it’s a pain that comes from such an early age.
I sometimes think that the best I can do for the remainder of my life is to continue to be as good and as courteous and gracious to other people as I possibly can. But I sadly have given up on all of my dreams, and I guess it’s just because I feel so very old and so very tired. (Maybe I was already born an “old soul,” so I could be really, reeeaaallllly old!……LOL)
I do so love reading the comments here. I feel such peace here. Thank you so much, Kim. And you, too, Peter.
(P.S. Oh my goodness, Kim, I just saw your photo and you are just absolutely gorgeous!)

As a male INFJ (I wouldn’t say that I’m co-dependent) I think the difference between INFJs and pathological narcissists is that INFJs were born stronger mentally. Even in they suffered a lot in early childhood, they REFUSED to die as a human self in order to cope with the suffering, whereas those who become pathological narcissists were weaker and instinctively gave up the self, around the age of 5-6 or so.

I’m puzzled why you wrote that Narcissists are empaths too. That’s what they seem like, and I think that’s what completely fooled my radar too. After years I’m still in shock because all my life I could pretty much read everyone so easily, could see right through people and so on, except this one narcissist who fooled me in every way possible and to extents which I didn’t even think were possible. Had to spend years trying to figure this one out, and am still not finished with that.

Narcissists have no empathy, they simply see us as objects, and anyone can learn to manipulate objects. They have no real concept of you, or any other people. You don’t exist in their mind other than random background noise, or a 2D lifeless cartoon image. I believed what every INFJ believes, that every human is human, there is some good in everyone, everyone can be more or less understood emotionally, if you are speaking with someone, then that person exists etc. and none of that is true with these creatures.

The scary thing is how extremely similar they appear to be to INFJs. Some of them even reflect your personality like my narc did, which seems just like the superhuman INFJ empathy we seek in people all our life, except it isn’t. They are automatic mirrors for the simple reason that they have no self, so in order to exist at all, they become you. And they are extremely good pathological liars.

So whet can an INFJ do beyond revenge? I calculated that the greatest good I can do here is try to destroy this creature completely, push it to the limits and crush it mentally, and make it understand that it has to have a self again and become human. So that one day it can feel what it’s like to be human. It’s also an interesting experiment because we INFJs are all about human emotions, our core is made of those emotions, but these creatures have no interpersonal emotions at all, so how do you kill something that doesn’t exist. How do you make such an object become human, without the help of your INFJ skills, as they are worthless here? Well, whether it worked or not is yet to be seen, there were some changes in “her” but honestly I don’t think it will be enough. I left sadder but wiser, a broken heart (again), but now that I see the psychopaths and narcissists everywhere for what “they” are, I will also be able to recognize other actual INFJs better I guess.

I came across in Pia Mellody’s book: “The Intimacy Factor” an interesting point that was connected to your original question. In this book she talks about the abuse of children by their parents – but particularly by separating these abuses into either ‘disempowering’ or ‘falsely empowering’. It seems that the falsely empowered children may become the narcissists.

Here is an example she gives of a type of abuse in childhood that would lead to them becoming a severely dysfunctional adult. (It sounds like my ex, my father and my sister!):

‘Parents immature in regard to the attribute of appropriate immaturity may encourage a child to behave younger than [their] years. When a ten-year-old is having a temper tantrum in the way a two-year-old would, the parents indulge the infantile outpouring, appearing to get from it something like the reward a parent gets in the first years of a child’s life when the child is totally helpless and dependent and the parent the guarantor of life. If the parent continues to seek this reward for being the parent of an infant beyond the time when the child is infantile, the parent can inflict severe damage. The child is encouraged to behave without containment. [They] emerge into adulthood with damaged capacities to contain [their] emotions or appetites. [They] are the kind of adult who does whatever [they] feel like doing. [They] are “in control of being out of control’ – establishing [their] leverage in relationships on the lesson learned in childhood – that [they are] entitled to express [themselves] without age-appropriate containment. One cannot have a relationship with a person like this. All one can do is step out of the way.’

So, it is said that narcissists are made by either having too much attention (falsely empowering) or too little (disempowering) but the latter brings us back to our problem again because that is also what can create the co-dependents, the HSPs, the empaths… So, nothing really answered but more food for thought…

(By the way, if anyone is struggling, I have found Pia Mellody’s books on co-dependency the most helpful theraputic tool out there).

I think this is an extremely interesting topic, and I’ve often asked myself how in the world I ended up to be such an empathic, caring person in spite of my childhood of severe abuse.

I am an INFJ, too, and I seem to fit the categories of both HSP and Empath. I’m still not sure what all of that means, but it is comforting for me to think that others in the world may share these characteristics, too! I remember growing up always feeling so different, almost as if I were an alien or a foreigner upon this earth. Isn’t it funny that I can remember clearly some of the very thoughts and feelings I had when I was as young as two and three and four years old? I actually can recall the very thoughts I had then. I don’t know whether or not that is unusual, but I can remember thinking even as a child that the world “did not make sense.” I always wanted it to make sense, but it never has.

And even as a child I remember thinking that cruelty of any kind toward a person or an animal was simply a reprehensible idea. The child abuse that I and my brother and sisters experienced was all the more horrific to me because it seemed so utterly unnecessary and sadistic. Why would any human be be so cruel to another human being. I would ask myself. And I still don’t have any answers which satisfy me.

I grew up with, I think, all (or many) of the criteria which can cause a child to turn into an angry, bitter, cold, or narcissistic human being. Death of a parent at a young age, sadistic abuse at the hands of a psychopathic stepfather, neglect and parentification by a narcissistic mother, constant moving around the country (we often moved every 6 months, to the midwest, the east coast, the west coast…..not military moves, but because my SF lost jobs), attending 15 different schools, lack of love, sexual abuse, verbal abuse, emotional abuse, physical abuse, rape by a stranger.

Why, then, am I still after all of these years such a compassionate, deeply loving person? I honestly don’t know. I really don’t. I have not ever wanted to hurt another human being intentionally. Why? I mean, there were times I was filled with deep rage and hatred for my SF, but I could “see” his inner pain. I would get visions of him as a boy being abused by his mother, and as an underage teen fighting in the Korean War, and I would cry and pray for him. Why would a child do that? No one taught me to do that. No one told me I had to do that. Heck, no one paid enough attention to me to even know that I did that.

I seem to have been born this way. I don’t know, but I wonder if our INFJ-ness, our HSP-ness, our empathy, is just a part of who we are. How else to explain why I thought and felt as I did even when I was such a young girl? It seems as if I was always able to “know” or to “sense” the deep, inner pain and anguish in my parents, and for that reason was able to continue to feel for them, to pray for them.

I’ve tried throughout the years to change who I am, to be one of those people who can spout off smarmy, sarcastic comebacks to the a**holes and narcissists of the world, but I just can’t do it. It is not who I am.

As for narcissists, I know 4 intimately, and they can definitely cause pain. They are difficult for me to understand. My 3 siblings and I were all raised in the same household and I think one of them is possibly a narcissist. What caused one of my siblings to “become” narcissistic and what caused me to be nonabusive and empathic? That’s the question, and it’s a great one. I wish I knew.

Perhaps science will someday be able to explain such a thing in terms of brain wiring and chemicals, cortisone and serotonin and oxytocin. Or are our temperaments and empathy-proclivities coded in our DNA? Since I ask myself such questions all the time, I honestly wish that I could be around in 100, 200, 500 years in order to see what the human race has learned about the brain and what role, if any, it plays in psychopathy, narcissism, empathy, social conscience, love, and myriad other personality dynamics.

I am so glad I happened to find your site as I was searching for some information re INFJs. What a great conversation. I really enjoyed reading everyone’s comments. Oh, and I am really interested in what I read in one of the comments about INFJs lacking boundaries. I didn’t even realize what a boundary was until aboue 3 years ago! Can you believe it? In my abusive family, boundaries were nonexistent, so I assumed that my lack of boundaries was merely a learned behavior, but now I am wondering if I would have lacked boundaries even had I been raised in a completely “normal” home. Very, very interesting.

Thank you for listening, and for allowing me to express some of my thoughts. Peace to you.

Hello – I came across this page when I was looking up the similarities between INFJs and Co-Dependents but the question you ask is exactly what I have often found myself asking. I am unquestionably an INFJ, an HSP and Co-Dependent in a care-taking way and feel relieved to have made some sense of myself at last – however – I have had so many relationships with people who, I can see in hindsight, were very Narcissistic.

I have wondered if I was Narcissistic/Borderline myself because I certainly suffered narcissistic damage but I obviously don’t fit the criteria and wonder why I want other people to feel happy and comfortable and yet my ex, for example seemed regardless of the pain he was causing me, oftentimes deliberately causing it. However, I totally identified with his neglectful up-bringing and tried to help him see all his defence mechanisms – only to be alternately hated/loved for it…

I digress – sorry! But I haven’t come up with a solution to that question and really want to know if you have!?

Very interesting! Well, I’m not a narcissist, so does that make me the opposite? I had my fill of childhood trauma. Are you sure that it’s one or the other? Although I do have tendencies toward the caring approach. I don’t buy that it’s one or the other.

That is my ultimate goal too. I also want to be able to walk away without feeling anything while they boast. I maybe hope to chuckle silently while they desperately grasp and try to cling to their unwarranted accolades.

“or will they be forgiven for the gift of spiritual transformation their victims often undergo?”
I found this question about the Narcissist’s soul intriguing. It reminds me of something that is taught in the Buddhist religion. When we are on earth, there will always be certain conflicts/struggles that will be placed in our paths, it is up to us to resolve/conquer them. If we are not successful, the issues will continually revisit us until we learn to resolve them in this lifetime or the next (reincarnation).

So maybe the Narcissists are just doing their job!

IDK My ultimate goal is to turn this into something very positive for me.

And if that happens then I can thank him and then he can claim credit for it! A win win situation. 🙂

Forgot to say – Great post! And you’re on the right track! Trust your instinct, it’s steering you well!

Nurture not nature. Narcissists do to others what was done to them before they were able to understand it. It is about the stage of development. They are repeating a moment in their early life, and sharing their wound… well, giving it to others to heal for them as they can’t heal it.

Are you an INFJ?

I do have a theory connecting empathy and Narcissism.

Empathy and Narcissism are both about boundaries between self and other. Most of the Narcissists I know are very empathic, just not in a way which is normally considered as being empathic.

How do you think Narcissists get so deep into their victims? They use a version of empathy. They are ‘bad’ empaths. Everything has a flip side.

Exposure to a narcissist can be a profound vehicle towards spiritual grow. Narcissism is the antithesis of spirituality. One attains spirituality when one has conquered and transcended ego.

I let you know what this is like if I ever get there.