The Paradox of the INFJ / Narcissist Connection

Sharing is caring

My months of research on Narcissists has turned up a recurring theme.  As many of you know, the Narcissist typically attracts a specific personality type.  Usually a warm, independent person with a clearly defined personality such as:  INFJ, Empath, Protector, Caregiver, Nurturer, Sensitive, and/or Highly Sensitive.

One theory of how Narcissists became the way they are is through faulty parenting.  Perhaps their parents were Narcissists; they apparently didn’t get the love and nurturing they needed as a child.  In fact, there are several related theoretical causes as to why a person becomes a Narcissist including:  excessive criticism for bad behaviors in childhood; emotional abuse as a child; unpredictable or unreliable caregiving from parents.

It seems INFJs, Empaths, Sensitives, etc.  generally report the same on the subject of wounding childhood experiences.

I have to wonder, what causes one person to become a Narcissist, while another becomes kind, caring, and nurturing?  Does it have more to do with nature than nurture?

The Narcissist and his co-dependent are attracted to one another because of a deep-rooted need to resolve childhood issues.  Will the Narcissist ultimately be punished (via Karma or eternal damnation) for their evil ways, or will they be forgiven for the gift of spiritual transformation their victims often undergo?  Are the heart-wrenching lessons the victims learn some kind of divine intervention?

What do you think?  Feel free to share you theory below…

Sharing is caring

Leave a Comment:

Anonymous says September 16, 2021

so sorry to hear you are going through this. It’s not impossible to get out. Extremely difficult but not impossible. What you are experiencing is learnt helplessness, because he has put you through so much. It makes you feel hopeless that you can’t get out. And the part about falling for his bs every time, that’s due to Trauma Bonding. The combination of cortisol and oxytocin through the rollercoaster of highs and lows creates an addiction. You will crave him, even when your common sense knows it’s wrong/devastating for you. Breaking that addiction takes time. I understand your mind and psyche and soul feel trapped in the dark cloud of hopelessness and confusion of smoke and mirrors. But there is an escape for you. There is hope for you. There is light outside these lies and illusions for you. It may not seem like it because the narcissist traps our mind in hopelessness with their web of lies. But that web can be untangled with the faintest of faith and belief in yourself: even if that belief in yourself seems “ridiculous” or “unrealistic” or whatever else that inner critic installed by the narcissist says. Your soul knows that those are lies.

Alex says February 6, 2020

I’m an INFJ and grew up as the scapegoat with two narcissistic parents (one overt, one covert) along side my older brother who was crowned the golden child at birth. I suspect my brother is covert but not as extreme as my mom. My brother and I are very different with respect to how we see/react to the world. I believe being born highly sensitive and growing up with narcissistic wounds lays the groundwork for INFJs. The abuse and constant gaslighting further conditions one’s body to be on constant alert and I think coupled with LLI (low latent inhibition) magnifies intuition (the brain naturally processing more stimuli). Plus when dealing with duplicitous people, I feel that strengthens one’s ability to detect microexpressions, slight changes in vocal tone, and deduce intrinsic motivations.

I also recognize that the golden child potentially suffers from emotional incest (my mom treated my brother like a peer most of his life and would seek emotional comfort and validation from him). He also felt compelled to meet crazy high expectations and is very perfectionistic in some things and completely clueless in others. He, like my mom, must maintain a perfect veneer and seriously cannot take any criticism. I think in his mind, he was never allowed to fail. I’m not sure which came first; I was deemed the outcast or acted like one. I do remember never acquiescing to authority and always questioning why… this could have hastened my parents’ inevitable alienation knowing that I wouldn’t fall in lockstep with the family dogma.

So obviously it requires nature and nurture to produce INFJs and narcissists. However, I truly believe having that extra sensitivity and intuition (more mirror neurons and oxytocin) is the defining differentiator.

Valora says January 22, 2020

What about the covert narc who’s an INFJ?

JTM says October 5, 2018

As a INFJ who was married to a Narcissist for 20 years, you probably aren’t wrong. I did undergo extreme spiritual growth as part of the process – and I think my Ex got the Karmic justice deserved. I don’t think many INFJ’s in the same circumstances do as well. So take that as you will.

Phil G says May 21, 2018

Our brains produce electricity, enough to power a small flashlight. Electrical energy is both positive and negative poles. So we are all bipolar biologically, the question is, to maintain balance for clean energy, and its positive and negative, not positive “o”r negative poles that an immature mind thinks…I guess the neocotex is the flashlight.

Debra Sutton says March 7, 2018

I don’t agree all scapegoats become narcissist. Some theorize it’s the golden child who becomes the narcissist. I think either one can become the narcissist or the codependent. It depends on the child. I believe the weaker Personality becomes the narcissist. I like Ross Rosenberg’s work, but I don’t agree with him on this. From my own personal life experience I have seen a golden child become narcissistic and a scapegoat child become narcissistic. I have also seen a scapegoat child become codependent.

Debra Sutton says March 7, 2018

Kim I just recently tested and got INFJ. I just started researching why narcissist go for these personality types.

john garcia says September 6, 2016

Ive come to realize that my ex girlfriend was almost exactly like me and after the relationship I have learned so much about myself. For instance I’ve learned that its ok to think highly of myself and acknowledge my desire for attention, to charm to be outgoing and not shrink away as I was doing in the past. These things are ok when done without bad intentions. Also, too much to mention, a whole slew of personality traits I had during young adult and childhood. It is funny how we were the same ,yet different like we operated on different systems. She was like a dark mirror to myself

The Paradox of the INFJ / Narcissist Connection | Musings on Life, Love and the journey home says January 11, 2016

[…] Source: The Paradox of the INFJ / Narcissist Connection […]

pekay says January 8, 2016

I’m what you guys would probably label a narc, or “bad empath” but honestly I’ve been trying to help this empath learn how to protect herself, and she has been learning actually, she actually attacked my emotions and caused me to go insane and I roared out like a lion, but she was doing it by repeatedly saying a lie to me, well it’s complicated because even though she is far more empathic, she also has narc tendencies, we both have narc and empath tendencies. She craves attention from EVERYONE it’s disgusting, even old men, I’ve been trying to help her develop a sense of self, not to be so insecure and people pleasing…… I don’t know why someone like me is viewed as an enemy, if you stop to look at yourselves, you would see you also have a lot of growing to do, it’s too bad that I have to be the bad guy who forces you see that.

    Anonymous says December 18, 2016

    the problem is some things should not be forced.

Matt says December 14, 2015

I’ve known that I am an INFJ for a few years now, but I never really delved into what that meant until some extreme soul-searching and introspection after a terrible marriage that (thankfully) only lasted a few months to someone who apparently has some sort of psychopathic issues (NPD, BPD, Histrionic disorder, etc. – not sure what or which, as she refuses therapy or counseling). In retrospect, she had all the signs of a psychopath. I had no clue what a psychopath even was before we split, but looking into it now, I see most all of the signs; whirlwind romance, quick commitment, her lack of empathy, her false facade she presents to the world, the triangulation of others, the lies, the snooping, betrayal, and once behind closed doors, her vitriolic yelling and criticizing of me and my children, emasculation plans and control tactics began. Since the split from the person that removed her mask shortly after the vows were said, I have learned a great deal about what an INFJ is and how one thinks, and I can say that I can see about 90% of what an INFJ is within myself. I also see these exact things that attracted this psychopath to me, and also what attracted me to her. And in retrospect, I also see these failures that I have had in the past in a similar light, in which I was the “good man” that just wanted to help. She even told me that I am a “good man” and that I “saved her”. While I, and my closest friends do indeed know me as a good man, I can also be perceived as a bad man by those that cross me and betray me. Once it’s apparent that my efforts in relationships were pointless, and that I was the only one trying to help, repair, and nurture, it is very easy for me to withdraw into myself and push the offender out of my life totally, and sometimes brutally. An INFJ can be your best advocate, but when pushed far enough, will be your worst enemy. Looking back, this learned ability to “door slam” someone that’s bad is what saved me. I called her out on her lies, stood up to her bullying, and suggested marriage counseling. She texted me two days later that she had left (yes – texted!) I guess this was when she realized I had nothing to offer her. I didn’t have the money she evidently thought I had, my children aren’t the perfect saints she thought they were, and this humble, kind man that she through she could take advantage of? Well, it turns out he isn’t the pushover she thought he was. The discard was quite easy for her, and why bother actually talking face-to-face when a simple text message will do? Of course, being the INFJ I am, I had apologized profusely, admitted all of her criticism as fact (even if it wasn’t) and tried to work things out. Nothing I did, wrote, or begged for worked. Then I read something that made total sense: one cannot reason with an unreasonable person.
Yes, I am an INFJ, and yes, this psychopath was drawn to me for this very reason. I let my guard down early because I thought we shared many commonalities, and because I thought the differences would go towards making a well-rounded partnership for life. Unfortunately, those commonalities were all lies and mirroring of myself on the part of the psychopath, and even more were things that I assumed were in her simply because I tend to project my own goodness upon others. The differences were simply the parts of her mask that had worn thin through the years and revealed what was truly behind that mask.
The worst part? She tells everyone that wants to listen that I am the psychopath. If they were only there to see who started the fights, how she would bait and bash, how she would use sex as a control tactic, and worse than anything, how she tried to use my children and even God in her psychopathic plans, they might see the true demon behind her mask.
And now, I figure I’ll just give up. It isn’t worth the pain any longer to try to be the helpful, trusting “good guy”.

    Nevaeh says November 9, 2016

    I am a INFJ woman and i can relate to everything you have written. Wow.
    This: ” An INFJ can be your best advocate, but when pushed far enough, will be your worst enemy” and ” While I, and my closest friends do indeed know me as a good man, I can also be perceived as a bad man by those that cross me and betray me. ” is so true.
    I am a lover not a fighter but if theres no other option left but fighting it will get dirty.

    Bettina says November 16, 2016

    Hi everybody,

    I sympathize deeply with Matt’s story. I’ve been through a similar situation with a man. The part of ‘best advocate’ and ‘worst enemy’ deeply moved me because it’s exactly the way I feel about it.
    I would also like to give an answer the the question of Karma. As far as I’m concerned I believe that only via an NPD I have been able to find out who I am. HSP, INFJ and deeply spiritual. Maybe I would have found out without this devastating contact with a NPD person but he worked like an acceleration system. I’ve never experienced something as destructive but at the same time fascinating as this malign narc.
    Just like Matt words it: I’ve learned to ‘door slam’ to protect myself but at the same time I can’t let go of this most fascinating phenomena of ‘the evil’.
    I guess HSP and INFJ, or similar characters, are on a higher spiritual level than NPD people. NPD are mainly focused on wordly things and are attracted by our spiritual and cerebral, they deeply eny us, because they know what we have inside us cannot be reached by them.

      Lucy Carson says March 22, 2017

      Wow – Bettina, you just opened my eyes to something so very profound: “I believe that only via an NPD I have been able to find out who I am. HSP, INFJ and deeply spiritual. Maybe I would have found out without this devastating contact with a NPD person but he worked like an acceleration system. ” I have been searching and searching, knowing that I am supposed to learn something from the situation I am in, but unable to grasp it and I believe you just illuminated it for me. I am HSP, empath, INFJ and deeply spiritual. And I didn’t know any of this with certainty until I started my soulful searching (internally and externally) becasue of the relationship I am in. I am deeply grateful.

      christy says July 13, 2017

      I need help. I need advice. I am an INFJ and my boyfriend is a Narc/sociopath. I can’t find the strength to walk away. Is there really such a thing as walking away from these people. Currently he is in prison until October. When his term is over he says he is coming home (and he does what he wants). Right now he is on his best behavior, saying all the things I want to here. Writing all the time. Beautiful letters. The thing is, I know he is not going to change. His many promises will go unfulfilled like in the past. We have been together now for 3 years. The worst 3 years of my life. The lies, cheating and betrayals were epic. It got so bad that I stopped talking to all my family and he ran off all my friends, till I eventually stopped coming out of my room. He was sleeping with so many people. He even has a baby due in september with one of them. I was humiliated daily. He lied about almost everything. He neglected all of my needs. I am just now at the point where I don’t cry everyday. I’m so tired now. The stress of him coming home and things being the way they were is almost unbarable and all consuming. I barely made it through this. I can’t do it again. Part of me hopes that maybe he is sincere this time. But the other part knows he isn’t. But all he has to do is talk to me and I fall for his crap every time. Now I am full of so much anger and just so tired. I don’t understand why it is so hard for me to end it, I’ve ended relationships for far less than what hell he’s put me through. He is so toxic for me, yet sucks me into his trap every time. I feel very abandoned and lost. This relationship has truly beat me down till I’m exhausted. What can I do?

      Holly says January 11, 2020

      Wow! Thanks for all the comments. I am so grateful to know there are others with like-minded ideas and theories about this topic.

    Bettina says November 16, 2016


    sorry for my typing errors.
    What still occured to me is the defense mechanism of ‘projektive Identifikation’. I’m German and don’t really know how to translate it It must be something like ‘projective identification’. To study and understand this mechanism explained a lot to me about borderline and narc behavior. On the other hand INFJ tend to get stuck in altruism which also is a defense mechanism. Self-parenting is my answer to overcome extrem altruism that has become pathological.

Beatriz says September 30, 2015

Dear Kim, I thank you for your blog. It has been revealing for my soul. Sorry, my english is not my first language but I would like to write a comment.
I´m INFJ/HSP/empath. My mother is a narcissistic person as my first boyfriend. The emotional wounds are so strong. The same that all of you. I have a question. I´m lost. I think I´m loosing myself. I think I´m never going to be happy although some things can be better. After a lot of disappointments in my life ( for people and bad luck) I´m very closed to life.Like if I have open my eyes and feel “Oh my God, what´s all this?” I´m really scary, I don´t want to meet people because I think maybe he/she is a narcissistic or risky people.
I am very natural trusting and I have found that people made me harm. So now I don´t want to believe in nothing and nobody but at the same time I´m feeling that my soul is dying because the nature of INFJ is goodness, confidence, innocence, believe in people and life…so how can I do? How can I recover to myself? I have a beautiful son and I want to go with him in his life. I would like to teach him all the beautiful things in life but now I don´t believe in them because I´m so hurt. Can I believe that I can be happy if I can see that the most of the people have a mental disorder or they are narcissistic ( it´s scary when I see they are more than I thought) or they don´t understand most of the things I can see. It´s like I had a third eye.

Lissa Lehman says July 7, 2015

I purchased your “How To Do No Contact Like A Boss” since I have now left my husband who I believe suffers from NPD. We have been together just over 4 years but only married 4 months. After we got married, he changed. Although he wasn’t the man I fell in love with for quite some time, it seems that his meanness became more deliberate. I read in the book or one of your blog posts, that INFJ personalities are either targets or attracted to people with NPD. There was a link in the back of No Contact book to take the test. So I did. Guess what….I am an INFJ. I wasn’t surprised. To say it simply: I had what he doesn’t possess so he took all of mine from me, so I have none of it left. I chose to leave now instead of later. I will soon be in my own apartment in 4 days. I am so thankful I have the resources to leave while others may not. I am so ready to be free of him. Thanks for reading.

    Kim Saeed says July 7, 2015

    Lissa, thank you so much for reaching out and sharing your success story. I hope others will see it. I am so glad to know you’ve gotten out! Kudos on the new apartment! 🙂

    Anonymous says July 8, 2015

    Dear Lissa
    I can’t believe the similarities between your situation and mine. I met a very successful contemporary artist who seemed so engaging when I first met him. I was captivated but also felt a strong need to protect him. After about three months his “real” side began to be revealed. He would be more verbally cruel and vindictive, more manipulative than anyone I have ever met and then be so loving when he felt me retreat. He would also lie beyond belief and had me questioning my own sanity. Each time he did something vile he would have to work harder being “lovely” to get me back. He eventually asked me to marry him with all sorts of promises that he would be different. Like a lamb to the slaughter I said yes. Things got so much worse after we were married and it lasted only four months. When we split up we’d been together four years. But what I can offer you I hope, is hope. It is now a year and a half since we split. He tries to get in touch still but I never reply and I am so happy and relieved to be free. You may well have weak times when you are haunted by really penetrating thoughts of him only to hear from him. This is when you have to be REALLY REALLY strong. I am now in a truly loving and respectful relationship after a lot of heartache, soul-searching and therapy to recover from the psychological and social (he broke down old relationships of mine and my daughter’s) damage he caused. But despite having this wonderful person in my life, the narcissist still winds himself into my head and I hate myself for that. I know I would never go back and I will all I can to protect the relationship I am now in but all I can do is hope that eventually the potency of this narcissist runs out. His power does seem to diminish each time I don’t reply. If I am honest I don’t know what it would be like if I had to see him – I just pray that never happens and the fact that he left the country (something he does) should make it all the more likely. But I wish you all the luck in the world. Protect yourself because you are kind (I too am an INFJ so I know well what you are made of) and that does mean you are vulnerable. Use your wonderful instincts to find only the people who give too and aren’t takers and surround yourself with them. Your life will change immeasurably. Good luck!!

    Lucy says July 8, 2015

    Dear Lissa
    I can’t believe the similarities between your situation and mine. I met a very successful contemporary artist who seemed so engaging when I first met him. I was captivated but also felt a strong need to protect him. After about three months his “real” side began to be revealed. He would be more verbally cruel and vindictive, more manipulative than anyone I have ever met and then be so loving when he felt me retreat. He would also lie beyond belief and had me questioning my own sanity. Each time he did something vile he would have to work harder being “lovely” to get me back. He eventually asked me to marry him with all sorts of promises that he would be different. Like a lamb to the slaughter I said yes. Things got so much worse after we were married and it lasted only four months. When we split up we’d been together four years. But what I can offer you I hope, is hope. It is now a year and a half since we split. He tries to get in touch still but I never reply and I am so happy and relieved to be free. You may well have weak times when you are haunted by really penetrating thoughts of him only to hear from him. This is when you have to be REALLY REALLY strong. I am now in a truly loving and respectful relationship after a lot of heartache, soul-searching and therapy to recover from the psychological and social (he broke down old relationships of mine and my daughter’s) damage he caused. But despite having this wonderful person in my life, the narcissist still winds himself into my head and I hate myself for that. I know I would never go back and I will all I can to protect the relationship I am now in but all I can do is hope that eventually the potency of this narcissist runs out. His power does seem to diminish each time I don’t reply. If I am honest I don’t know what it would be like if I had to see him – I just pray that never happens and the fact that he left the country (something he does) should make it all the more likely. But I wish you all the luck in the world. Protect yourself because you are kind (I too am an INFJ so I know well what you are made of) and that does mean you are vulnerable. Use your wonderful instincts to find only the people who give too and aren’t takers and surround yourself with them. Your life will change immeasurably. Good luck!!

Brian says June 29, 2015

Here’s my theory (paraphrased from Human Magnet Syndrome & Alice Miller):

Those who are disconnected from their Self, for whatever reason (that list can go on for days), are faced with 2 distinct choices stemming from childhood patterns relating to our caregivers growing up.

1. If they SUCCESSFULLY please their caregivers, a co-dependent is born. Their identity is shaped by giving/pleasing outside of themselves, outside their true self.
2. If they UNSUCCESSFULLY cannot please their caregivers, a narcissist/borderline type is born. Because they were unable to please, they had to hide their shame by creating this identity.

The energy vampires (Narcs/Boderlines) will feed off the “willing” codependent. It’s truly a dysfunctional dance that can go on for a lifetime if mindfulness is not practiced. Both feel they are doing what comes natural to each of them.

Keep in mind, these labels are just that..labels. That is what the ego wants. I use them for simplicity sake, but the term is arbitrary. Call them “forks” and “spoons” if you prefer. The bottom line, is we as children were forced (for survival) to escape our true selves. For whatever reason, it was not ok to be ourselves. As kids, our egos viewed not being heard as death. Rather than dying (which our ego is designed to protect us from), they developed a “false self.”

This took many. many years to figure out. Long list of book, articles, and soul searching. I’m not a coach or in the psychology field at all. Just a marketing guy who is looking to start his own business and ultimately discover his true happiness. I hope this reply finds everyone well.

Shama says March 28, 2015

I love this post and the comments on this post!

“Will the Narcissist ultimately be punished (via Karma or eternal damnation) for their evil ways, or will they be forgiven for the gift of spiritual transformation their victims often undergo? Are the heart-wrenching lessons the victims learn some kind of divine intervention?”

I think this confuses things, actually. The victim’s lesson and opportunity for transformation is presented by God, and their exercise of their own freewill and reaction is between them and God alone. The fact that the Narc has made herself a tool of “the devil” does not mean she gets to take any credit for the victim overcoming the perils of evil.

It is the job of every human being to discover, understand, and share LOVE. Those who are not doing that aren’t “doing their job” – in fact, they are expressly NOT doing their job. But we are not the be all and end all — the fact that horrible human failures can lead to beautiful things points directly to a higher power.

So, in conclusion, each person’s choices are his own relationship with himself & God (or whatever you want to call it). That means the Narc is sewing poison, and the victim (who triumphs – not becomes a repeat abuser) is sewing virtue – and they will both reap what they’ve sewn.

Anonymous says February 22, 2015

what are estj

Keta says February 9, 2015

I am an adult female INFJ. I’m also the daughter of a narcissistic mother and a codependent father. I definitely think my empathy, ability to read people, and drive to make others happy/comfortable/their best selves stems from my narcissistic upbringing.

Clara says October 31, 2014

People are attracted to those with their same chemistry. I am an INTJ/INFJ. So I will usually be attracted to these types or those with similar chemistries, regardless if they have a mental illness or not. My kids’ fathers are both feelers. Again, this is a nature thing. What makes people become narcissists/psychopaths is faulty nurture. People with the “feeling” function require more nurturing than those with the “thinking” function. When the feelers as infants don’t get real love, as they grow, they seek out nurturers, protectors not only because they are usually their same chemistry, but because they have a lot of love to give the spiritually empty. My younger sister is also a feeler and she became a narcissist while I didn’t. We had the same upbringing. What I think made the difference was when we were little, I didn’t get pampered or spoiled. I didn’t get a lot of love but a little consistent bit. On the other hand, my dad (also a narcissist) spoiled my sister and when he abandoned us, no one continued to spoil her, but the damage was already done. This business of being on empath/hsp is more complex than attracting narsisists/psychopaths, depending on our neurological wiring/chemical makeup we’re also prone to illnesses like fibromyalgia, hypochondria, allergies, sinus infections, and bronchial infections. I study astrology not so much for predicting the future (that area I leave to God), but to understand how it affects me as an empath. I’m a virgo (neurotic and susceptible) so I naturally will have hypochondria because I can feel the physical infirmities of those around me. My moon is in pisces so I can feel the emotional states and spiritual charges (positive or negative) of those around me which can make me very uncomfortable. Logically, I’m not afraid of the situation that is causing them but physically, I can’t take the vibrational bombardment and I feel like running from the situation for relief. As humans, I believe we’re made out of chemicals, but I also believe that we are spiritual, whether we can accept it, understand it or not. Our parents gave us faulty love because that is what they received as children. I’ve also given my children faulty love, but it is our responsibility to learn what real love is and to start giving it to others. To me love is caring for and loving someone without controlling, fearing or catering to them.

Clara says October 30, 2014

I was a religious Christian for the last 24 yrs until recently. I don’t attend church anymore but I believe in God and Christ more than when I was religious. I am an INTJ/INFJ. So I can be scientific but my mystic seems to beat out science. I barely found out I was an empath earlier this year along with being an HSP. But I knew for quite a while I was an INTJ/INFJ. I didn’t know anything about narcissism/psychopathy until four years ago when I had a bad breakup with a boyfriend I now know was a narcissist. His behavior didn’t make sense to me, aside of it being very painful to me. Before that, I now know, I was married to a psychopath (the father of my children), his behavior was even more contradictory. It got to the point where I started thinking (he helped me – dark humor) that I was the one who was crazy. So I went to the psychiatrist. They reasurred me that I wasn’t crazy but they didn’t tell me in detail that he was (maybe because they’re not supposed to or maybe because they wanted me to keep coming back $$). The point is that I didn’t know what mental illness was until 8 yrs after that. Being an intuitive and picking up info. from everywhere (science/ universe), I can now see that mental illnes is a spiritual illness. For lack of real love, infants/children evolve as narcissists and psychopaths because a huge spiritual and emotional void is created in them. Deep down inside, I feel compassion for such people, but on an everyday basis, I cannot let my guard down. I’m also barely learning boundaries, too. I, like all empaths, can feel the sadness, pain, anger, anxiety that these people emanate but block out. It has at times made me very miserable. Being an empath makes us prone to depression, so now we not only have to deal with our sadness but it gets compounded with that of the narcissists/psychopaths. I have another empath friend who has actually developed non-cancerous cysts in her abdomen from being continually around narcissists/psychopaths. When I finally had my spiritual awakening 4 yrs ago. I felt the presence of a good entity in my room during my grief after the breakup. I really know that we’re not alone. When this awakening happened, it freed my mind to think what I want consciously and conscientiously. Religion shuns the occult but I started studying psychology and astrology for it’s metaphysical information and deduced that the 12 signs are an extension of the five temperaments: melancholy (seratonin), choleric (testosterone), phlegmatic (estrogen), supine (oxytocin) and sanguine (dopamine), which are chemistry. I believed that we are naturally born with our temperaments and typelogy, our brains are already wired a certain way, our neurological systems are very complex (empaths/hsps/infjs); however, the faulty nurturing throws us into what I call the leftside of the conscience threshold where narcissism, psychopathy, entitlement, arrogance, shame, etc. are located and on the right side of the threshold, where out of God’s mercy, I am and most of us are, are goodwill, altruism, empathy, faith, gratitude, etc. are found. Like you mentioned, some narcissists and psychopaths were born with the wiring to be INFJ (and they can show empathy but it’s more on instinct than benevolence), but because of the lack of real love, they are stuck on the left side, on the dark side. I have visited 12 step programs and I have witnessed the slow but steady awakening of narcissists/pscyhopaths who are really making an effort to change, to become conscious and concientious.

This site talks about how science is now attributing our temperaments to the seasons, science is still behind – they like to do things the hard way 😉

Part 4: Behind the mask of Narcissistic Personality Disorder and narcissistic abuse – life through the narcissist’s eyes | Happiness Weekly says October 4, 2014

[…] Saeed believes the narcissist may be attracted to a particular personality type that is revealed through Myers Briggs Personality testing. INFJ – Introverted iNtuitive Feeling […]

Angel says August 24, 2014

Wow Kim. I think i love you, actually infact i know i do.
<3 after almost a year. I just now discovered your blog. It is for me the most helpful.

Now back to this article. I am without a doubt a cross breed INTJ with F & E
"…you appear to have marginal or no (1%) preference of Thinking over Feeling,"

FROM the site

"…however, is that INTJs really want people to make sense. 🙂 This sometimes results in a peculiar naivete', paralleling that of many Fs — only instead of expecting inexhaustible affection and empathy from a romantic relationship, the INTJ will expect inexhaustible reasonability and directness."

This is where my Narc-Ex got me, my need for reason, at the very beginning of meeting this man we were dating and i could see was confused i did not respond to the love-bombing. He dissapeared for a while and came back no more love-bombing, but,, instead i got what i would call intellect-bombing. We had grate convos etc mixed with love-bombing (after all i still wanted affection right?).

I learnt that excluding my narc-mother i have through life rebuked a few narcs, but this one i sense in my gut that satan sent him to me on a mission.

I feel bitter…it is a horrible disgusting feeling (makes me feel dirty)…when that is not there overwhelming sorrow brings me to tears. Your videos are helping me even after 2 days.

    Kim Saeed says August 25, 2014

    Hi Angel! Thank you for your encouraging comments. I’m so glad to know you’ve found a bit of relief in reading my blog!

    I know exactly how you feel, and it’s absolutely the worst. But, the good news is that if you continue to focus on your recovery as you’re doing (meditations, etc), you will begin to feel a little better each day. I have some other healing tools on the site that you might benefit from. It’s been my experience (and that of my clients) that it usually takes a few different healing modalities to completely heal…well, and time. But, stay strong, stay consistent, and whatever you do, don’t allow this guy back into your life.

    I would also recommend cutting the energy ties, if you haven’t already. Even if you don’t believe in the metaphysical, the visualization aspect of the exercise has been of tremendous help for others…perhaps it will help you, too. Here’s the link:

    Best of luck in your healing journey! Hugs <3

Sarah says July 14, 2014

I almost burned them as a releasing ritual, but I am glad that I kept them now that I know my early suspicions in our relationship were true (true to form, I let him manipulate me into disregarding my intuition) but I kept writing assignments he had for a meditation class he almost ended up failing. I couldn’t relate to why he was having so much difficulty writing about meditating, and I was easily able to interpret what the professor was requesting, but I know now that meditation is reflecting on the self and observing the observer. It requires honesty. I honestly don’t think he was actually meditating at all. We meditated once at a Buddhist center together and he said he was thinking about being victorious at volleyball. I spent time in a float tank and loved the peace and stillness and controlled dissociation, he had always wanted to do it because of the film Altered States. I was so euphoric and proud of myself that no mental demons (self doubt, recrimination, self loathing, fear) surfaced and was proud that I could be that still for an hour in the dadk floating in space. He seemed like it was boring. He suggested that maybe he needed to take hallucinogenics to get something out of the experience. I was disappointed that he was disappointed. I don’t know if he really disliked it or was just being negative because I had been so positive or because I am the one who gave him the gift certificate. But basically, I think that INFJs have a talent for self reflection and being able to apply our Ni to others situations which is a inverted form of the projection the sociopath does. They have zero ability to self reflect and so see others as empty shells like themselves, so they see nothing wrong with maltreatment because we are all shadows themselves included. Its why he spent way more time and energy on me than he usually would with other dupes and he briefly fooled himself into feeling human by way of my energy. Hes not as attractive so his options are more limited and generally preys on very obese women. I think he felt like he had finally found his soul mate in ke because I was pretty and good in bed and outgoing and able to easily connect with others. I thought he meant what I meant when he would talk about potential for the future. Sadly, I came to figure out that he envisioned me as his perfect rape bait, the only means to get the pretty young girls to have sex with him. He hit on a young hippie girl in front of me and after she was creeped out and left, he asked her name (apparently sociopaths have pretty bad memories mine has always been superb) and then asked it again a few minutes later. By this point I was tired of ignoring my Ni so I gathered my feminine power and said “if you can’t remember a woman’s name, I am sure as shit not doing it for you. I am not your fucking wingman”. His response was to dominantly pull me by the crook of his elbow on my neck (hes a foot taller than me!) and say “what are you talking about, you were born to be my wingman” and thats when I realized his fantasy of us traveling in a van/rv wasnt some far future retirement plan, he was imagining a cross country rape tour starring me as the perfect rape bait. now that I have enough distance (its been a week since we spoke) and I am not self medicating constantly with pot to quiet my intuition, I am able to put all the pieces together and have had several epiphanies about myself and the entire world. Part of me still hopes he might be human and one day will break down the walls but I believe he really is a sociopath. He always talked about being a Buddhist because he lives in the now, but I practice mindfulness that is why I am able to remember things. His now is sociopathic and shallow. So beware anyone who claims to be a “natural buddhist”. His dad is the same way. Couldn’t understand why I or his mother use a mindfulness bell to bring our focus to now. Because we are so busy processing stuff that we sometimes forget there is a now. But thats what the sociopaths do, they spin you around so you are trapped in depression for the past or anxiety for the future and we forget the now, where we can effect real change to make the world a better place. Buddhism and unperverted Christianity are cures for living with sociopaths among us. Prophets show us how to free ourselves from the sociopathic Influence on our consciousness that makes us slaves to our desires. False prophets are sociopaths who want to keep us ensalved. So once an INFJ awakens and as long as they dont get suckered by another sociopath, they can actually reach enlightenment about the nature of reality and illusion. I think thats ultimately why thr love hate us so. It is something they covet that they will never have – an enlightened soul that finds strength in love. To them love is the ultimate weakness and their love for us makes them hate themselves for being weak and needy. Thats why they love projecting the air or self reliance. They know they are completely dependent and unable to survive without being parasites on humanity and they are jealous the rest of us can Interbe (back to Buddhism that doesn’t believe in being separate of one another). I believe that historical Buddha and Jesus were INFJ just like MLK, Gandhi, and Eleanor Roosevelt. It sounds grandiose and savior complexy but I don’t care about other people’s perception anymore. Image management and appearances is The Way of the Sociopath. I don’t want to look like a good person, wear a mask of perfection while feeling hopelessly broken inside. Thats what keeps the apaths under control of thr sociopaths. Difference is INFJ because of our functions, we are able to recognize the sociopathic influence on our psyches once we come out of the cocoon so we can be full empaths. The sociopaths of the world rely on apaths and apathy to allow thek their control and influence. It takes balls to recognize the Emperor’s new clothes are made of patchwork human flesh. Its lonely outside the Matrix. Its a small clan, but it’s our responsibility to awaken others. We just have to be careful because those asleep are dependent on the sociopathic police and nanny state systems of control. If you guys don’t listen to Tori Amos you should. She will bloe your mind. Shes also INFJ and she sees the layers. So many artists are straight narcs but some are INFJ and their art is catharsis and a path to follow. I once saw a venn diagram with Narcissism and crippling self doubt intersecting with art in the middle. I plan to write to try to liberate others but I also have to do it on a practical level (Tori is a RAINN activist) so I don’t feel like I am trapped in narcissistic masturbation like the false prophets. I won’t be happy with anything less. I am grateful for the sociopaths for showing me the value of thr empathy I have been suppressing in order to fit in their twisted reality. No more.

Sarah says July 14, 2014

I have been trying to figure this out, as I have just emerged from a cocoon enveloped by a sociopath. I want to use a metaphor (us INFJs love our poetry lol) that has just come to me… I see us as Sookie from True Blood. She is drawn to the vampires because she cant read their thoughts and it is a breath of fresh air to be around the silence. Because of our extroverted feeling, we are drained by others emotional stafes. The N/s types arent as draining (until they take over your life). Its thr Ni that makes us feel crazy because we ignore it at our own peril (and anyone with Ni who suffers gaslight ng will feel crazy. So we are then trapped between our desire and our self interest. Theycan be angels if we allow ourselves to learn the lesson… Dont try to be a sociopath if you have empathy because it will make you ill. Thankfully this has been a wakeup call to arms for me. I will cloak myself in love and give to the suffering people of tue world who are incapable of seeing the destructive influence of the sociopaths of the world. We are here as natures counterbalance to pure evil. It’s a huge responsibility but I am not truly happy if I shirk that responsibility in any way.

WritesinPJ's says July 4, 2014

Reblogged. Great conversation here!

    Kim Saeed says July 9, 2014

    Thank you! 🙂 <3

INFJ’s and narcissists | my life in pajamas says July 4, 2014

[…] wanted to repost a blog called The Paradox of the INFJ/Narcissist Connection.  So many interesting things to consider as we all continue to understand and […]

Carrie Reimer says May 13, 2014

Oh and btw I am an INFJ also. Apparently they only make up 1% of the population and interestingly enough N are supposed to take up 4%

Carrie Reimer says May 13, 2014

My ex is a Libra and every man I have fallen in love with was a Libra and none of the others were N’s. I could see the Libra traits in my ex and actually almost didn’t date him because of it but in typical N fashion when I said I didn’t think we should date because my track record with Libra men was not great. His reply was, “What sign do you want me to be?” I thought that was so sweet. LOL little did I know it was going to be one of the last times he ever said anything truthful.
But why I am commenting is because I think they are born that way. I have no doubt in my mind actually. Maybe mild narcissism can be from childhood but I believe that if a person is born “normal” and it is their upbringing then there should be a way to counsel them out of it. If it was ever not broken then it should be able to be healed. To my knowledge not one, ever has been cured of being a narcissist. Then in my mind it must be a birth defect.
Dr. Robert Hare has studied Psychopath’s for 30 years and he has done brain scans that prove the Psychopath’s brain is different than the brains of “normal” people. They simply do not possess the part of the brain responsible for empathy, compassion etc. Like all disabled children they have learned to compensate for their disability and developed their ability to imitate and read people’s emotions. I do believe they are empath’s in the way they know what a person is feeling, they know when a person is hurting, they know how to use a person;s emotions against them. You have to understand emotions in order to do that. The thing that makes them different from typical empaths is they don’t care that the other person is hurt. They use their exceptional empathetic skills for evil and to better themselves whereas the rest of us use it to help people . I think it depends on how we define empathy. Empathy is the ability to sense what a person is feeling, but not necessarily care how a person feels. Does that make sense?

I think how a person is raised definitely affect how the Narc or Psycho path functions in the world. I think good parenting can help them learn how to be more convert in their abuse of others whereas a N who was abused as a child might be more vocal and obvious in his abuse. My ex was raised by very loving christian’s and he is a very convert N, passive aggressive and uses the religion card to his advantage. He plays the naive, christian boy who naively gets involved with the wrong people. That’s how he gets away with all the stuff he does. he also learned early on that injuring himself is great for attention and getting out of trouble.

Dr. Hare says there is no cure for narc/psychopaths. I have a friend who’s b/f was badly beaten with a baseball bat to the head. He should have died but didn’t. He was extremely damaged mentally though. I had not known him prior to the attack but my friend has read my blog and she says he was just like my ex, for sure an N. But while he was still in a coma the doctor told her that the part of the brain that controls a person’s compassion etc was severely damaged and that what type of person he was prior to the attack he would be the opposite if he lived. For example if he was miserable, mean, unhappy after the attack he would be happy go lucky, kind and loving. But if he was loving and kind prior he would be mean and miserable after. Well, he was the sweetest, guy after the accident. like a child though, she couldn’t leave him home alone because he could wander off and get lost.

But she said the doctor was right, he was exact opposite of what he was prior to the attack.

That makes me think that Dr Hare is on to something. The brain did not develop normally.

I also think to a degree it is inherited. My ex’s son is ADHD, OCD, and a bunch of other disorders but not Narcissistic. His sister is Borderline PD. His sister is a full blood sibling but she was raised with their mother and a step dad, my ex was adopted and raised by Christians. They didn’t meet until they were adults. His son did not meet him until he was 15 so there was no influence there. I think that when the DNA of some couple are mixed they create a toxic combination. just like some couples have a higher chance of having a mentally challenged child or other defects.
JC’s mother went on to have 2 more children with her second husband and they are totally normal adults and had normal childhoods.

I also think that if JC would have been raised by the step dad he probably would have been beaten as a child becuz his step dad is a no nonsense kinda guy. I think many narcs that had abusive childhood were abused because their behaviour was so unacceptable and the parents were ill equipped to deal with a child that refused to listen to any of the rules.

well that was a mouthful
Sorry for taking up so much space. I find it fascinating

    Lucy says May 13, 2014

    Hello, I’m coming back to this post after a while and after a lot of thought/analysis…

    I think that the simple distinction between narcissists and co-dependents is in the place where they put their pain; the narcissist turns it out (sadistic) whereas the co-dependent turns it inwards (masochistic). Both have the ability to empathise (as you rightly said Carrie) but the narcissist will go to all lengths to avoid pain and so will endeavour to place it at the feet of anyone close to them, whereas the co-dependent (I believe), in understanding that pain, doesn’t want to make anyone else suffer and so will accept the pain of another.

    Where INFJs and “empaths” fit in to this I am unsure. The title of empath becomes misleading due to the apparent ability of the narcissist to empathise. It seems to me that the function that is different between the narcissist and co-dependent is sympathy. Whereas co-dependents and possibly INFJs have sympathy in spades, the narcissist has none. Psychopaths on the other hand are different from a narcissist; seen from a neurological point of view they are just wired differently, whereas the narcissist suffered infant damage (watch their tantrums and it’s obvious!) The INFJ may be prone, because of their particularly increased sense of empathy to also sympathise unduly and put themselves at risk of becoming the receptor of the narcissists pain.

    ‘Sympathy (from the Greek words syn “together” and pathos “feeling” which means “fellow-feeling”) is the perception, understanding, and reaction to the distress or need of another human being. This empathic concern is driven by a switch in viewpoint, from a personal perspective to the perspective of another group or individual who is in need. Empathy and sympathy are often used interchangeably. Sympathy is a feeling, but the two terms have distinct origins and meanings. Empathy refers to the understanding and sharing of a specific emotional state with another person. Sympathy does not require the sharing of the same emotional state. Instead, sympathy is a concern for the well-being of another’. [Wikipedia]

    So, in conclusion, co-dependents and INFJs have the ability to care about the pain in another but, I believe, that in empathising and therefore feeling pain – others or their own, narcissists hand it back in rage and have no care for anyone but themselves.

      Kim Saeed says May 24, 2014

      Lucy, thank you for your very insightful and accurate input.

      The overlap occurs in Narcissists and Psychopaths because one individual can possess both disorders on varying levels. It seems some Narcissists are born with neural deficits (as they relate to the limbic system), while others develop the disorder from 1) Emotional/physical neglect during childhood, 2) Having had over-permissive parents who praised them for everything and never taught them accountability.

      Whatever the case, Narcs indeed have no ability for empathy. Further, one may be able to experience empathy without actually being an “Empath”. Empaths not only feel others’ pain, but actually take it on as their own, and the same goes for others’ joy. Empaths are hyper-sensitive to their surroundings, and are often drained after going out in public because of all the emotions they pick up during the outing. They often try to “save the world” and are considered light-workers in this age of enlightenment. It just so happens that INFJs and ENFJs tend to be Empaths because of their innate personalities (and they often end up as co-dependents because they dislike confrontation and try to “fix” everything in their relationships, leading them to put others’ needs before their own).

      In closing, your observations are correct, I just wanted to clarify what it means for one to be an “Empath” 🙂

Jennifer S says April 1, 2014

It is so good to find this site and read your writing, Kim. I identify with you, as an INFJ/HSP/empath. I also have a relationship journey characterized by care-taking on my part and abuse (beginning in a childhood that contained significant elements of emotional neglect and parentification). I’m so glad I’m not alone and I thank you for sharing from the bottom of my heart. I have also thought long and hard about how the paths of the N and the INFJ could diverge so dramatically, in terms of coping strategies. Part of me can’t seem to help feeling that perhaps INFJ’s are older souls than N’s, although I guess that is an excellent example of the the kind of superiority complex that my ex-partner always said I exhibited. Anyway, I read one theory (where, now, I do not remember) that suggested that INFJ’s, as the prototypical “gifted” child, were able to successfully help their needy and developmentally immature parents, and as such were rewarded for their empathic behaviors. N’s, on the other hand, were not as successful, and early on decided to reject the whole idea of relating to other people, deciding that they are OK and other people are not. I’m not sure that one can say that an N is a “bad” empath — to be empathic at all one must be able to acknowledge the independent existence of people other than yourself, and perhaps a truly character-disordered N is not capable of this. Certainly both types have trouble, I think, developing a truly adult ego state; for gifted children (again, I mean this in the sense of Alice Miller’s work) the false adult develops so early and so skillfully, it blocks the development of a true adult that can fully integrate the needs of the entire personality system. For N’s, I think something similar happens but that it involves a false parent instead of a false adult. I’ve been reading about transactional analysis lately and all that it has to say about the parent/adult/child dynamics of the individual psyche and I feel much closer to an understanding of things, but in the end, there is mystery (thank goodness). Bless you on your journey, and I look forward to reading more of your writing in the future.

    Kim Saeed says April 1, 2014


    Thank you very much for stopping by and for your poignant and insightful input.

    I suppose I was using an analogy when I called N’s “Bad Empaths”. I was trying to make a reference to their ability to somehow instinctively draw people to them who would best fulfill their needs. Perhaps “intuition” would have been more appropriate?

    Anyhow, I’ve also read material referring to INFJ’s as “old souls”. However, this is the first I’ve heard about INFJ’s not developing into a true adult ego state, though now that you’ve mentioned it, I can see how that could be possible. The reason I say that is because no matter how intellectual I may consider myself to be, and regardless of my achievements, I always seem to carry wounds from childhood and haven’t yet come across a method to get rid of them entirely. I will definitely check out Alice’s work.

    In closing, I am starting to wonder that Narcissists enter into our lives to help us grow spiritually because had I not had that experience, I may not have discovered certain things about myself, nor come out of the mainstream of how I regard myself and how we are “supposed” to live our lives.

    A very good way to start the day 🙂 Thanks again for commenting!

    Kim Saeed says April 1, 2014

    By the way, Jennifer…I don’t believe in coincidences. I went to your site and came across a quote by Wayne Muller, which I will likely post on my site, as well. More importantly, I found a book he wrote, A Legacy of the Heart: The Spiritual Advantages of a Painful Childhood, that may very well be what I need in order to grow more spiritually while releasing my own childhood pains.

    Thanks for being my guiding light today 🙂

imfree says February 21, 2014

Sorry we’re off topic here Kim, but Peter, have you ever done any research on borderline personality disorder (bpd) or histrionic (hpd)? They all have overlapping traits. I had a bpd wife for 10 years. BPDs have narcissistic traits but they are emotionally unstable, to say the least. I find NPDs to have more emotional stability. Also, BPDs have a serious fear of abandonment, and they cannot be alone for long. They will always maintain a significant relationship, wheras NPDs can possibly do without a significant relationship as long as they have other sources of narcissistic supply.

Regarding astrology… for much of my life I was completely skeptical. I am usually skeptical of anything supernatural, unless I gain some type of personal experience which tells me otherwise. And I too, have wondered whether there was a seasonal/geographic impact on the development of a fetus. But if that is the case, is astrology merely a consistent correlation to our seasonal changes. And aren’t our seasons determined by the position of the earth relative to the sun. I think however you look at it, it’s the same.

    Peter says February 22, 2014

    On BPD and HPD no sorry.. I only looked at them briefly sometimes, for example with this girl, but ruled them out, she didn’t fit those descriptions.

    Yes of course the Sun and the Moon play a central role in all life on Earth, but in the already explored biological way. The other planets have virtually no effect though, I think all this thing with the 12 signs and houses and ascendants and animals etc. is nothing more than simbolism taken too seriously. For many thousand years mankind had to come up with some sort of explanation to the actualy biological underlying phenomenon.

      tiredofliars8 says February 22, 2014

      Leo victim here. I will say this much. I read besides empathy competitiveness is a trait that keeps you in this game way past its sell date. I have to admit I kept thinking I could fix my capricorn Narc. He would get better and try for awhile but he could never keep it up for long. He also would never go away. I kept cutting him off and somehow he would get me to talk to him again. It was some roller coaster until I went NC strongly. I have to deal with him occasionally for business but do so at arms length and when he trys to get personal I cut him off at the knees. My boundaries are strong but the wounds will never go away completely. The finding out of NPD was both consoling and agonizing. It explained my many years relationship but the thought he never really loved me was painful. The thought that he kept coming back because I was nothing more than good supply caused alot of obsessing.

Peter says February 21, 2014

This emotional connect/disconnect thing was the only way that I could actually understand her behaviour.. she did have some very strong NPD emotions (happy sad angry and boredom) but she could literally switch these on and off in an instant as an additional defence and manipulating mechanism. She did this without ever noticing, “unconsciously”, it was totally her nature. And even if the emotion was switched on, I think she didn’t experience them as her own, but as something “out there” in the outside world, shared by everyone.

That’s something I noticed with another NPD too by the way, they don’t experience their emotions as their own, they believe that it’s something out there, shared by everyone and apparent to everyone. So from their perspective it actually does seem like they can and do change reality using their mind. I guess ideas like the Law of attraction were invented by narcs and psychopaths too because they actually see the world like that, but it’s only an illusion.

Yes the connection of signs and narcissism is surely an interesting topic. I must admit that I don’t believe in anything supernatural, so to me, only about 20-30% of Astrology seems to be true (although that part is often shockingly accurate), I see it simply as a seasonal biological phenomenon – depending on which 9 months we spend in the womb we will have a unique brain/mind development in places far from the equator – the farther away, the stronger the effect.

I’m pretty sure that the sign Pisces produces the most pathological narcissists. But yes, there are quite a few in Virgo too (although I’d say in Virgo sociopathy is more likely).

Leos not really – Leos are usually normal human beings who have (way) too much “healthy narcissism” but it’s not the pathological form at all. Leos have this inner well of light or whatever 🙂 as one of them explained to me, that keeps them happy and proud of themselves 24/7. It’s a built-in fusion reactor in most Leos. And so they always need attention and praise but pay little attention to others etc. it’s just a personality type.

    bethy888 says February 21, 2014

    Amusing thread. I am a leo empath who was involved with a passive aggressive Capricorn Narc. My Narc pretty classic with d and d, charming, passionate sex, lying, gaslighting, silent treatments, coming back…..Here is what is somewhat different. He actually would come back strong after his discards because I played such hard ball. Would come back bearing expensive gifts, trips, tears…you name it. Would actually be good for a long time sometimes years. I didn’t find out about NPD till after my 10 yr relationship breakup. I told this friend of mine with a pysch background I didn’t understand his need to keep trying to get me back just to sabotage again and again. He informed me that he was classic Narc if he ever saw one. Once I started reading about NPD I just was flabbergasted. Wow this is what the crazy making was about. Of course it was a whole new grieving with the…did he ever love me? was I just great supply? It was agonizing at first but it finally gave me the strength to go NC to combat his constant hoovering. Most interesting thing I read is that another trait besides empathy that keeps us in the game is competitiveness. I am fiercely competitive which really is a leo trait. I didn’t want to give up on him. I thought I could fix him. I have two other leo friends who had long term narc relationships as well. We fought them like crazy ladies which in turn caused this competitive back and forth roller coaster. Oh how I wish I knew about NPD long ago. I still fighting him with NC cause I feel like he will try forever.

imfree says February 21, 2014

One last thing… I think one’s natal chart needs to be read as a ‘whole’. I think most people will find some negative or challenging planetary aspects within their chart. But when there are several that ‘couple’ together I think they tend to amplify themselves, and some aspects are balanced out by others.

imfree says February 21, 2014

Here are some of the planetary aspects for my recent ex… the Leo, which speak to some of her self-destructive behaviors. You need to look at all of the aspects and when combined, I think, can lead to a narcissistic personality.

-57 Square Jupiter – Pluto
She might be tempted to exploit others.
She is rarely satisfied with her achievements unless they are big. She is an opportunist.

-75 Square Venus – Uranus
She looks for new sensations in love and is often unsatisfied by affairs which quickly turn into purely conventional relationships. She likes novelty, adventure, the eccentric: she is frivolous, unstable, unfaithful. Marriage is not for her and, if she does throw herself into this adventure, it will end in divorce, written off as a youthful mistake. As a result of her numerous love affairs, she makes sure her line is continued.

-46 Square Mars – Neptune
This is a challenging position, as you have difficulty trusting in your ability to go after things that you want in a direct manner. It may also be that you have difficulty pinpointing what it is that you want, or that part of you doesn’t feel you deserve it due to a basic lack of self-confidence. You fear rejection as well as criticism, and often use roundabout means to go after what you want.

Your imagination is so powerful that it can be hard to trust your instincts. You easily imagine things going wrong, just as you easily fantasize about good things! Your desire nature is strong yet also very suggestible. You’re attracted to mysteries and intrigue. Sexual experimentation is likely, as you are forever addicted to sensuality and unusual or perhaps even what many would consider perverted sexual scenarios. However, your sensual appetite might be much like a bottomless pit, and you could find yourself forever in a state of wanting more, tiring of regular sexual scenarios quickly, and endlessly searching for the next sensation. If an addiction to fantasy is present, you can find yourself constantly chasing a new and more complicated fantasy. It is only when you get into touch with your heart and discover your true desires that you realize that sensations are merely sensations–not deeply satisfying or fulfilling. Fears of sexual inadequacy can be great with this position, and you may either deny yourself as a result, or overcompensate, seeking out experiences in which you are pretty much assured positive feedback. Some of you will experience both of these extremes in your lifetime.

Although you can be very creative at keeping your motives and personal agenda hidden–in fact, many of you seem on the surface of things to be quite gentle and yielding–you might eventually become resentful if you feel the need to resort to sneakiness in order to get what you want out of life. If you do feel resentment for giving up your power to someone else, learn to avoid giving it up unless you truly understand that you are doing it for yourself, and not for someone else. Resentments have a way of building and distorting themselves into ugly matter if you don’t deal with them properly and directly.

imfree says February 21, 2014

Peter, I hate to stereotype and I certainly did’t mean to imply that all scorpios have emotional issues. I’m sorry. But I have met many scorpios that seemed to have emotional issues. Also based on personal experience, I’ve been in relationships with two women that were near the leo/virgo cusp, and both had very similar personalities… being very narcissistic and attention seeking. Actually, there is much more to one’s astrological profile then their sun sign. I’d recommend looking at your natal chart, which will show all the planetary aspects which impact your personality. I was born on Dec. 21, so I am on the sagittarius/capricorn cusp. My natal chart is very accurate. I’ve spent an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out who I am, who others are, and why. I’ve come to the conclusion that MBTI, western astrology, chinese astrology… There is truth in all of them, and if you overlay them all, you’ll get a fairly accurate description. You can view your natal chart at this site (you’ll need to input your birthplace and date/time)…

Peter says February 20, 2014

Mine was an Aquarius-Pisces cusp, which is possibly the most scary thing imaginable, I think. We have four seasons here so the effect of “birthday” astrology is really strong here.

Made me wonder a lot. People born at the end of the winter are born with the most emotional deficits, the typicial Aquarius is known to often be actually disconnected from their emotions in a very literal sense (actually every Aquarius I have known was quite like that, but it always only turned out after a lot of time). And in the sign of Pisces spring finally arrives and things start to get better emotionally, but for many Pisces, still only on a quite superficial level.

So with an Aqua-Pisces cusp we may have someone who is not only a narcissist, but even has a split from her narcissistic emotions, and can connect and disconnect to them at will. It’s a two-level something, I tell you, I have never known or have never even heard of anyone who was like this girl. But damn, in the end, after figuring all this stuff out, I learned far more about what it is to be human, and what “normal” means and how “normal” works, than I could have with anyone else.

Ps. I’m Scorpio, and we are quite crazy and deluded yes, very hard to resolve our internal issues but it can be done sometimes.

    Kim Saeed says February 21, 2014

    Thanks for informing us about Aquarius/Pisces, Peter! I haven’t really touched on astrology, but personally, the information I’ve read regarding my own sign is often very accurate. There is definitely more that needs to be explored regarding Narcissism and the Zodiac.

    Sounds like you went through quite an experience. I”m glad it helped you learn more about humanity…I, too, have learned a lot about myself and am on the path to becoming more enlightened. I never would have imagined myself saying this, but I’m thankful for my experience because it’s helped me grow.

    P.S. – I’m Capricorn…perhaps I’ll do some research sometime on how astrological signs might influence one’s Narcissism and/or how one’s sign could possibly be a magnet for Narcissists…

imfree says February 19, 2014

Kim – I really want to thank you for sharing your story, experience, and suggested healing. I first ran across this narcissistic/infj topic on a search, but I see your site has so much more information. Thank you 🙂 Taking a broad spiritual view I do believe we all have roles to fill in our lives… and I think there is a reason why there is an attraction between INFJs and Narcissists. Both people are meant to learn from the experience. I myself have at times during the grieving process demonized my ex, but on some level I know that they are suffering and flawed as are many people. Unfortunately their flaws drastically impact others, whereas our flaws have less of an impact. I believe our personality type can appear weak, but we’re able to reflect and learn and recover through strength. Emotionally sensitive people have more strength than they realize I think.

imfree says February 17, 2014

By the way, I’m curious to know the astrological signs of everyone’s ex Narcissists? Mine was was leo, which are known for having narcissistic tendencies.

    Kim Saeed says February 18, 2014

    I never thought about that angle…wow, I looked up the Ex’s sign, which is Virgo, and my computer froze with all the links that came up for Virgo Narcissists…

    Hindsight is 20/20 🙂

      imfree says February 19, 2014

      umm… mind = blown. My first significant relationship was with a virgo. It was a 10 yr relationship along time ago during my teenage years, I think that was my initial trauma… she toyed with me like a cat toy. In my experience Leo, Virgo, and Scorpio are likely to have some significant personality disorder. I don’t mean to stereotype but…

    jill says May 18, 2014

    its been 7 months since the xN left in a fit of rage, after announcing “you want EVERYTHING so I will give you NOTHING!!!!” .. because i wanted an emotional connection! whoops. he was Taurus with Taurus Rising, I am also Taurus. however, he has a nasty (cyst) little thing going on in his chart – Venus square Pluto – and at the same time, a Mars square Pluto? Plutonian men/narcissists like to take a woman to Hades and back, to remake her in his image…he felt it was his right, his Calling to wise me up, fix me up, make me a more effective cog in his big plans… it was an inflatathon. I actually wondered if all Venus square Pluto ppl were all Narcissists? its a nasty clash between love and sex, wanting and needing, death and change. and I was fairly vocal to him via text about what his personality was like to deal with, how painful…. admitted that i knew he was NPD and that i loved him/missed him. They hate emotion, i know it made him squirm and cringe to hear that…icky human emotions, how VILE. yet also very existence affirming, im fecking sure. good old Mr Taurus Sociopath Wannabe just burnt me and all that was to the ground…. oh and btw they will only be jealous if you rebuild yourself from the ashes and fly away.

      Kim Saeed says May 30, 2014

      Thank you for your comment, Jill, and very apt insight regarding astrology!

      I’m glad you are out of that situation and hope you are making progress in recovery 🙂

imfree says February 17, 2014

Hi Guys,

I’m fresh out of a 18 month relationship with a narcissist (definitely covert and alternating between somatic and cerebral). She broke up with me 1 week ago, and I am still reeling. I too am an INFJ. She broke up with me after a night and morning of horrible intuitions on my part. On saturday of last week I finally spoke to her and immediately asked her if she had cheated on me. She denied it, and then asked why I would think that. I told her I had some incredibly weird vibes the previous night and that morning and then she broke up with me, no emotions, just discarded me. I think she knew, that somehow, I was onto her and she panicked thinking I was close to discovering the truth… that our relationship, her apparent loving demeanor, her professed fidelity, were all a lie. There were many red flags along the way, and my intuition was right, but I ignored it damnit! 1 1/2 years wasted! But not entirely… I’ve had some ‘aha’ moments this past weekend, one of which is that she truly is a narcissist, but some others… That I am possibly co-dependant and possibly an inverted narcissist (someone that only has romantic relationships with narcissists). I say this becauause reviewing all of my past relationships, I realized that I have broken up (within an 8 month time period) with every person that was considered normal and all of my long term relationships have been with emotionally unavailable people (either borderline or narcissistic). Mind blown! And, I believe, my first serious relationship which was terribly emotionally abusive possibly created this co-dependancy and gave me my fear of abandonment. But now, for those of you who are at rock bottom, myself included, we have the chance to heal ourselves and to correct these recurring relationship patterns. So in some way, my narcissist ex has given me the gift of re-birth…. enlightenment. So in some ways the grief is worse because we’re mourning the loss of our hopes and dreams, but we’re also struggling with the fact the we loved someone that didn’t exist, as others have said. But in other ways, the grief is somewhat bearable, because this truly is a situation where “it’s not you, it’s me” applies. N’s are essentially animals operating on behavioral survival instincts, using primitive coping mechanisms to get their narcissistic supply. Her discarding me, has nothing to do with me as a person.

    Kim Saeed says February 18, 2014

    I’m sorry that this happened to you, but impressed by your valor and insight into the fact that it’s a learning experience which helps us grow.

    I have become more spiritual…not only religiously, but also as spirituality pertains to the Universe. I’ve learned a lot about myself that I may never have learned had I not been through the experience. Like you, I kept attracting toxic relationships, although my marriage to a Narcissist was by far the most horrific.

    “So in some way, my narcissist ex has given me the gift of re-birth…. enlightenment.” – Truly, this is not something I hear often from victims of Narcissistic abuse, especially if the breakup is recent. You are going to be just fine.

Peter says February 1, 2014

To Kim:

Been two years, well actually it was only a one year relationship and I ended it the day everything I found out the lies.. I’ve been lied to about everything everyday for a year and I didn’t notice it at all.. no red flags or anything, on the contrary, she seemed much more normal than normal people.. I was never so shocked by anyone in my life I think, how could I have been so incredibly wrong?

I immediately ended it but it took like 1-2 years to get over it, and it still keeps popping up every few weeks in my head. Not because it was that hard to deal with per se – I have another problem in my life that is several times worse than this so I’ve been fighting all my life – but because we just can’t process what happened with our normal human minds. I wrote about why I think this is so in greater detail in the response to Dawn. Even with extensive research and a lot of work put into it, we need at least months, years to figure and sort things out, and the repercussions of such creatures among us are huge, the INFJ needs to rethink absolutely everything about life, humanity, history, and put everything together differently – in our worldview everything is connected and affects everything else.

My narcissist woman is a covert narcissist, noone knows it about her. She herself doesn’t know it either I think. She seems to have an angelic personality, concerned with the welfare of others, completely selfless, idealistic, strong, warm, everyone loves her completely. And none of this is true.

I think she lied so well because they have no concept of reality. They actually believe their lies, they don’t even see lies as lies. They think that what they think or say is real, so they can change reality with their thoughts or words, even the past. This is completely crazy and out of this world, but seems to be true, I think that’s how they see it..

My father too is a more or less covert pathological narcissist or something like that. Well he sure doesn’t have empathy, only now am I starting to understand what effects this had on me and my life.

Meditation is good, I also use a CBT technique on paper to figure out problems in my thinking or in common sense in incredible depth, I learned to be my own psychiatrist or something like that (from the book Feel Good from David Burns). Also the videos of Sam Vaknin are quite useful, he is a pathological narcissist with extremely high IQ who tries to get his narcissistic supply from trying to have the best insight in the world into the minds of pathological narcissists.

I wasn’t under surveillance but the narcissist refused to let me go for another year, constantly tried to get us back together, it was cruel but I used this obsession of hers with me to try to destroy it psychologically, and test every non-human method on her I could think of, eventually she couldn’t take it anymore and gave up, disappeared. And all during this there was never a sign of conscience in her, not even fear of exposure, it’s really weird. They can’t even be threatened because they can’t imagine the future or something like that.

Dawn says January 31, 2014

Yes, Peter, I can definitely see what you’re saying. It makes sense. I cannot wrap my mind around how a narcissist “thinks” or perceives the world!……at all! And, believe me, I’ve tried.
I could go through my entire life without ever yelling at anyone, including my children. They’re grown now, but it was simply not my style to yell at them when they were children or teens. It never made sense to me to yell, scream, throw tantrums, verbally harangue, belittle, or disparage people, even during heated disagreements with them. Yet, my N husband acts like a 2-year-old whenever he doesn’t like what I say, or whenever I happen to disagree with him. He throws things, breaks things, threatens to kill himself, screams at the top of his lungs, calls me horrible profanity-laced names. I am so sick of it, and as an INFJ it is slowly destroying me. I have lost all of my self-esteem. All of it.
I need to get out of this relationship. I don’t know how. I’ve reached the point where I don’t believe anyone could ever possibly want me or love me. I’m not young any longer. I just feel so discouraged.
I will say this, though…….and I am agreeing with Kim……my relationship with my husband for the past decade has opened my eyes to the reality of narcissism, emotional abuse, and boundaries. I learned more about life and relationships from living with this man than I ever learned by reading a book. There’s nothing quite like excruciating psychic pain to force one to desperately search for answers!
When I first met him, I knew nothing about boundaries. I also knew nothing about narcissism and not much about psychopathy. I began a quest to learn as much as I could, reading everything I could get my hands on. I discovered that my SF was a verifiable psychopath with sadistic tendencies. I finally had an awakening and was able to understand why I had suffered so much from PTSD symptoms since my early childhood. And I discovered that my mother was a narcissist. My husband definitely has something major wrong with him, and I vacillate about whether or not he fits into the narcissism or the psychopathy category.
I often ask myself, “Where do I go from here?” I never once in my life had an adult to turn to. Seems I have always been on my own, to figure things out for myself. I wish I’d had someone…..anyone……aunt, uncle, teacher, coach, grandparent…….take interest in me and show me the love and kindness every child deserves. But I didn’t get that. As a consequence, I live with such deep inner pain and loneliness. I think it’s a pain that comes from such an early age.
I sometimes think that the best I can do for the remainder of my life is to continue to be as good and as courteous and gracious to other people as I possibly can. But I sadly have given up on all of my dreams, and I guess it’s just because I feel so very old and so very tired. (Maybe I was already born an “old soul,” so I could be really, reeeaaallllly old!……LOL)
I do so love reading the comments here. I feel such peace here. Thank you so much, Kim. And you, too, Peter.
(P.S. Oh my goodness, Kim, I just saw your photo and you are just absolutely gorgeous!)

    Peter says February 1, 2014

    Hello Dawn,

    I think they are so hard, so impossible to understand because we keep looking and looking and looking for something that would explain their behaviour, make their mind understandable to us. However as it turned out to me, this approach can never work.

    Because there isn’t such a thing, there is nothing to find. Their behaviour can only be understood more or less by a fundamental lack of something. That extra something we are trying to find, that would explain things, is not in them, but in us.

    Turns out the normal human mind is split into two pretty much distinct parts: the self and the other. I think empathy, at the most fundamental levels, is simply the interplay of these two parts, a dead simply solution that psychologists haven’t been able to figure out for centuries for the same reason, they have been looking for something instead of the lack of something.

    A dual mind, a “split” mind, cannot understand a mono mind, everytime you think about a narcissist (/psychopath/sociopath), you are inevitably using the two parts of your mind to do so, which prohibits you from understanding them. And not thinking about them doesn’t help either.

    And while we are almost completely incapable of simulating a mono mind within us, the narcissists are 100% incapable of ever concieving a dual way of mind so they will never, ever, in the slightest, be able to even grasp what we are talking about and how people actually work and experience life all around them. It’s just invisible to them and they don’t believe it. They find humans inferior, however in reality they have no idea what it is like to be human, what thy really find inferior is just how being human appears to be from a mono mind, where the concepts of self and other have no meaning, everything is crammed into one inseperable goo. That’s why they can’t have interpersonal emotions either, they cannot have a real concept of other people.

    Humanity, and even INFJs have been completely blind to psychopaths and narcissists for millennia for the simple reason that a mono mind is invisible and incomprehensible to the dual mind. I do believe that narcissists are a simpler form of homo sapiens, creatures in whom the unique trait of homo sapiens self-consciosness has broken down, so narcissism and sociopathy are illnesses of self-consciousness. Darwin called them unnatural monsters.. self-consciousness is a human trait so that’s why we don’t see these disorders in animals I think.

    Well at least that’s how I see it now. We can now go to space but still can not see these beings all around us. Barack Obama for example is a pathological narcissist, a creature without a human self and noone would ever believe or understand that.

    Sadly I can’t give advices as to how to end your relationship, I don’t have the experiences. I can only say that whatever a narcissist does to us or anyone else, that will never, ever have any effect on us being still very lovable. Narcissists don’t matter, what they say or don’t say, do or don’t do doesn’t matter. We must learn to view them apart from humanity, humans and accept that any change they made to use, came out of pathology and should be undone. It’s all outside the realm of being human.

    I can relate to the inner pain, my father is a narcissist too.. I was never seen as anything more than a lifeless object in his mind, to be used.. and have been thinking a lot too as to how to go on after all this, seems some people are simply born into hell and instead of enjoying life, they are forced to try to find a way out of hell first. Innocence is irrelevant, fairness is irrelevant in this world, it’s a cruel world where some people are simply born true evil and are trapped there.

    But in the end we are what we are, and as you said, we should continue to be good to others. Except we need to block out at least half or more of humanity because they are simply not worth of our good nature. Even if this world is going down and cannot be saved, an INFJ can only be happy when she/he lives out the INFJ nature with some people as best she/he can and never gives up.

    Take care

      Elisabeth says March 25, 2014

      Thank you, Peter, for sharing this. You hit the nail in the head with this comment. This is the reason we cannot understand them no matter how hard our logic or emotions work for that. They have a mind so different from ours, a “mono mind”, where only they exist. We cannot conceive that which we have never experienced at all.

Peter says January 28, 2014

As a male INFJ (I wouldn’t say that I’m co-dependent) I think the difference between INFJs and pathological narcissists is that INFJs were born stronger mentally. Even in they suffered a lot in early childhood, they REFUSED to die as a human self in order to cope with the suffering, whereas those who become pathological narcissists were weaker and instinctively gave up the self, around the age of 5-6 or so.

I’m puzzled why you wrote that Narcissists are empaths too. That’s what they seem like, and I think that’s what completely fooled my radar too. After years I’m still in shock because all my life I could pretty much read everyone so easily, could see right through people and so on, except this one narcissist who fooled me in every way possible and to extents which I didn’t even think were possible. Had to spend years trying to figure this one out, and am still not finished with that.

Narcissists have no empathy, they simply see us as objects, and anyone can learn to manipulate objects. They have no real concept of you, or any other people. You don’t exist in their mind other than random background noise, or a 2D lifeless cartoon image. I believed what every INFJ believes, that every human is human, there is some good in everyone, everyone can be more or less understood emotionally, if you are speaking with someone, then that person exists etc. and none of that is true with these creatures.

The scary thing is how extremely similar they appear to be to INFJs. Some of them even reflect your personality like my narc did, which seems just like the superhuman INFJ empathy we seek in people all our life, except it isn’t. They are automatic mirrors for the simple reason that they have no self, so in order to exist at all, they become you. And they are extremely good pathological liars.

So whet can an INFJ do beyond revenge? I calculated that the greatest good I can do here is try to destroy this creature completely, push it to the limits and crush it mentally, and make it understand that it has to have a self again and become human. So that one day it can feel what it’s like to be human. It’s also an interesting experiment because we INFJs are all about human emotions, our core is made of those emotions, but these creatures have no interpersonal emotions at all, so how do you kill something that doesn’t exist. How do you make such an object become human, without the help of your INFJ skills, as they are worthless here? Well, whether it worked or not is yet to be seen, there were some changes in “her” but honestly I don’t think it will be enough. I left sadder but wiser, a broken heart (again), but now that I see the psychopaths and narcissists everywhere for what “they” are, I will also be able to recognize other actual INFJs better I guess.

    Kim Saeed says January 30, 2014

    Thanks a lot for stopping by and for your input.

    I hope my article didn’t come across as saying all INFJs are codependents. If I did, I apologize. I’ll have to go back and re-read it. What I’d hoped to convey is that, as you mentioned, INFJs survived a traumatic childhood without losing their sense of self. Because of that, many did grow up with co-dependency issues, but certainly not all of them.

    When I mentioned Narcissists are (bad) empaths, I didn’t mean they have empathy. It was more an analogy in that they are able to “detect” when someone is a good target because of his or her reluctance to establish healthy boundaries.

    I tried for 8 years, in one way or the other, to “teach” my Ex what it is like to have human emotions. In the end, he was the same, if not worse, than when we first met. It was all for naught.

    I’m sorry for what you experienced. Though, like you, I did take positive things from it. I’ve learned a lot about myself, about staying true to myself, establishing boundaries, and listening to my intuition. I’m definitely a better person for it.

      Peter says January 31, 2014

      Yeah there is no changing them.. their mind is not dual so they can’t concieve what we say.. I think they can only be destroyed (and it’s hard for an INFJ to be so merciless and cruel, cause so much suffering on purpose), and once the false self is destroyed, force the remnants of the true self to come to life again, so their mind becomes dual again, if that is even possible. But seeing how psychopaths and narcissists are destroying the world and humanity, doing this is probably for the greater good too.

      I think the hardest of all is the realization that I loved and completely bonded with someone who never existed. And even if I create a human being out of the narcissist, that will still mean that prior to that, that person never existed and there is noone to get “back”.. so I lose either way. It’s really a problem that doesn’t seem to have a solution.

        Kim Saeed says January 31, 2014

        I can relate completely. How long has it been since you left the relationship? It’s very tough in the beginning because it’s quite literally like withdrawing from alcohol or drugs. In addition to the fact we were brainwashed, our bodies became bio-chemically addicted to the constant ups and downs of the relationship (victim peptides).

        One thing that helps me tremendously is guided meditation. It helps to replace the negative inner dialogue that was placed there by the Narcissist. I very seldom miss my Ex, but I do still need to work on managing other things such as PTSD and phobias from being stalked. I no longer work outside the home due to the constant surveillance and harassment I endured. I do go out for other things, but he always hovered around my place of employment, and so I put a stop to that by working from home.

        I truly hope that my blog and the many other great ones out there can help you overcome this feeling of hopelessness. I am actually in a better place now than before meeting the Ex because of the spiritual transformation I’m going through.

      Michelle says January 24, 2015

      I do wonder about this, though: some people have narcissistic traits without having the full blown disorder, so these people may have insight – in other words, the battle may still be raging within them to determine what kind of person they will be. They may decompensate in times of stress but then have an ability to look at their own behaviour. I found this with a person I met: genuine insight, but then also narcissistic traits.

        Kim Saeed says January 24, 2015

        Hi Michelle, thank you for commenting.

        Without knowing more about the person in question, and assuming you believe they may have narcissistic traits…

        There’s an element of danger in assuming that if someone isn’t “full-blown” then somehow they are safer to associate with or even have a relationship with.

        It all lies in whether they’ve shown themselves to have low empathy/low conscience. Fewer symptoms doesn’t equal safety. Because so much of their lives are secret, then the traits you’ve witnessed may be the tip of the iceberg.

        If someone is able to look at their behavior as opposed to making excuses for themselves, they may simply be selfish. But again, if they are an undiagnosed narcissist, then even a few traits of pathology are enough to completely devastate any partners he or she may have.

      Michelle says January 24, 2015

      It is true though that some have traits and some have full blown disorder. Empathy is a big deal, agreed: without empathy a whole lot of damage can follow. But insight also is a big deal. To me the essential test is insight. Someone with insight still has the ability to moderate their symptoms: to change. Agreed that this can be faked, or looking at behaviour can be wrongly motivated – but it is also possible for a person with traits to genuinely be looking at their own behaviour once the stress induced decompensation has passed.

      If someone has traits rather than full blown disorder it would be pretty sad to assume no insight: to write them off as it were. To paint them even as being unhuman. I get the caution: I’ve experienced this also with a different person whom I think does have the full blown disorder, and cut off entirely. There seems to be no ability to interface: we choose the lone ranger role. But I do think another kind of person exists – traits with some insight.

      Bethany says March 1, 2015

      Hi Kim! Your blog has been of tremendous help to me. I too am an INFJ and walked away from my emotionally abusive/narc about a month ago. I was surprised to see a google search turn up information on the connection between INFJs and narcissism. As other INFJs have mentioned, narcissism and emotional abuse is a completely foreign concept to me. I had no idea there even was such a thing! Intentionally cause pain? Specifically to your lover? I have a hard time comprehending it. Can you, Peter, or someone here help me understand Peter’s comments about there not being a real human to love in the first place? I don’t understand. Is it in reference to the false self the narc portrays to the world or something deeper? An actual spirit/soul, ego vs self? Thanks in advance!

      Peter’s comment above –
      “I think the hardest of all is the realization that I loved and completely bonded with someone who NEVER EXISTED. And even if I create a human being out of the narcissist, that will still mean that prior to that, that person never existed and there is noone to get “back”.. so I lose either way. It’s really a problem that doesn’t seem to have a solution.”

    Elisabeth says March 25, 2014

    Such an interesting discussion we have here. I’ve been thinking about this subject (narcissist born or created) for a long time.

    “As a male INFJ (I wouldn’t say that I’m co-dependent) I think the difference between INFJs and pathological narcissists is that INFJs were born stronger mentally. Even in they suffered a lot in early childhood, they REFUSED to die as a human self in order to cope with the suffering, whereas those who become pathological narcissists were weaker and instinctively gave up the self, around the age of 5-6 or so.”

    How can you give up or let your human self die? Is that possible? I think maybe we can suppress/hide aspects of our personality, but to completely “kill” our human self is impossible…

    I’ve read this before in psychological descriptions of a narcissist, but thinking deeply about it, I do not believe it can be possible. What seems more logical is that narcissists are born that way, they possess a weak personality per se, they lack empathy per se, maybe those traits aren’t such an important part of the DNA, because we’ve seen different personalities in the same family (as somebody told in a comment before, between siblings).

    What about if the “soul” or “spirit” has the key here to the ability and the degree of the emotions, empathy and the strong or weak personality an individual possess? Nobody talks about that. We talk a lot about the environment, the type of raising in the family; we are beginning to look at the genetics. But we are seeing that there is not a definite cause and effect between these factors and the occurrence of narcissism personality disorder. We know humans are more than a body (genetics) and that we can raise above the conditions and difficulties of our environment, i.e. we are not predetermined by it.

    So my take on this subject, would be: Narcissists are born, but born with a soul that has that degree, that level of evolution that lacks those “emotional” qualities, mainly empathy. I also believe they are born with a physical brain that is not capable of experiencing these complex emotions we see they are lacking. Not generalizing here, but have you observed narcissists to be less intelligent than the majority? My N ex-boyfriend is clearly less intelligent than the average (even his family is convinced of that).

      Peter says March 31, 2014

      This whole topic is still very confusing to me and my views will probably change in the future too, some of what I wrote before may be nonsense and some of what I’ll be writing now may be nonsense too. 🙁

      Yes I think it’s quite possible, in fact it happens all the time, no matter how mind-boggling, counter-intuitive, unimaginable it seems. This may be a common way how sociopaths and once-human narcissists form, monominds that were once dual minds, even if for a short while.

      You cannot “give up” your “self and other” duality, I think
      that would be a contradiction. It happens, it is ripped apart at an early age. I’m quite sure that self-consciousness (self-awareness / reflexive consciousness, a defining trait of homo sapiens) has a lot to do with this in many people, it helps one side of the duality to take over the whole brain/mind. All becomes the self (sociopaths) or all becomes the other, with a non-functional, dead true self (narcissists).

      The mind can be ripped apart because of trauma or head injury or even brain inflammation caused by food intolerances etc.

      I think this doesn’t include typical psychopath narcissists though, these ones never developed a dual mind in the first place, they are possibly born that way. They are maybe not even monominds – they are non-dual and non-mono, there is nothing there that could be called a “self” or “soul” or “spirit” or “ego” or whatever.

      It may be sometimes possible for self-consciousness to emerge in psychopaths too though, and that is quite scary.

      There are major similarities between once-human narcissists and psychopath narcissists, but also major differences. My comments here may have been inaccurate too, I since then came to the conclusion that my ex is definitely a psychopath narcissist. In the past I tried to force her dead “true self” to come to life again, but now I realize that she never had one because she’s a psychopath narc, so these attempts were futile too.

      So now under ASPD I think we have at least 3-4 different groups that should not be mixed together, and that creates MAJOR confusion.. Some are born some are made, some have monoemotions some don’t, and it has recently been shown that psychopaths can even TURN ON empathy, or something very similar to that, when asked to do so.

      Peter says April 6, 2014

      Sorry Elisabeth, Kim keeps deleting my comments for some reason so I’m off here.

    Anonymous says June 21, 2014

    It is crazy how well you organize your thought. I am so glad I found this article and comments !

    I like to share my experience

    I “met” 2 narc in my life ( family ). I also tried to change them, gently, then tried to crushed them, pushed them into a corner so that they break and reconstruct a authentic self. ( glad to know I am not the only one who had this ideaa ! )

    It destroyed me instead. When you try to fight “a demon”, you might become one. That is what happened for me with the 1rst narc. You also mention that as an INFJ is Very difficult, which now I am understanding why.
    Anyway, I lived a very unhealthy life,as my social life wasnt an authentic one, because I needed to balance with positive energy the negative energy I would fight at home. ( Which also led me to be extraverted when I am not. So one can imagine how drained I was.)Everybody liked me, or at the worst beared me but I felt like I needed to be gentle so that I keep that flame alive inside. Problem, I lost touch with my real self, my flow. It became harder as people then rely on me and loved me for that not so real self/

    Talking about inside flame, I SO HIGH FIVE you mentally when I read the part we were stronger and didn’t want to lose our humanity to cope with the suffering. Thanks for saying it, you untangled some knots inside me.
    I now remember clearly when at dinner table I would tell my big sisters ( 10 years gap) to not listen and believe what was said about them. To be stronger, to be aware and not fooled. I also angrily yell at them for taking ” the easy way”.

    My 2nd Narc, I reached and opened the pandora box, (yay) and I was this close to change her. Almost did, but as you got it by now, it is a human being stuck, around 5 years old, very delicate and ready to go back behind walls at any sign of “danger”. It left me drained. It impact on my social life but I couldn’t stop myself as I was sure it would be worth it…. a future saved soul, is priceless. Little did I know that she didn’t plan to let anybody in her circle of trust but me; forever; She planned her life with me as supplyer, without thinking about my life. Then it hit me. Even now that she was healthier, she was still a Narcissist.

    She played her caracteristics she needed to work on ( I guess after observing me ) as a bait. I was fooled because I couldn’t see where it could go wrong; And she became happier, it reinforced my belief it was because of my emotional guidance when I found out it was because of ALL the attention I gave her.
    I failed at my exams and the more I failed at my life the better she felt. She felt she was worth it. Worth my study, my exams, my future, my projects and she got happier and I kept thinking I am near. It is gonna end. ‘( as you said, how can you kill something that does not exist)

    She kinda used a personnality default as a reason to ask for help and couldn’t understand how, when she was ( allegedly ) about to turn a better and happier person, I couldn’t give her my life for her. Which you can guess, she then implied it was because of me she didn’t reach her news goals

    And yes like everybody else I also asked myself if actually they were empathic. But found out they are not. They are extremely good observer and mastermind. They know that talking a certain way would led them to have certain things.

    Narc go far. She is right now an aspiring yoga teacher, while studying to be a nurse ( it is a worldwide job as she said). Before she worked in communication, went to the richest school for that ( threaten my father to accuse him of her sucide ( i guess leaving a note behind) if he would’nt pay for her fees) She is vegan, use ayurveridic, respect the bees, the tree, she travelled to india, australia, vietnam, around ue countries, work in social organisations, the perfect facade of the “empathic” human being.

    Guys , she is gonna be a yoga teacher. Narc go far.

    But as you said, we are not more equiped to spot them. I used to believe narc were only found in big companies, firm, bank, insurance, lawyer….. but wow. Yoga teacher guys. Be alerted !

      mdsenvirons says December 29, 2015

      Thats a ‘Covert’ narcissist…my sister, the elementary school teacher, is exactly the same as you’ve described above.

    Angel says August 24, 2014

    Wow Peter this is amazing. Like you i can say that although i am an INTJ (my narc-ex changed strategies with me). I also find it astonishing that i did not see them coming.

    Like yourself I am very good at seeing through people, to the point friends would ask me about someone before making up their minds about them, people would say ‘you’re such a good judge of character’. And i had this great instinct of knowing if someone was lying to me even if i knew nothing of the subject and had just met them. How my nar-ex got to me feels like witchcraft, i look back and wonder how did i let this happen and that is the worst for us. When you’re used to being able to see through people forgiving yourself for one who slipped through getting to you is very hard.

    But from your comment above like you too, I am determined to get back to myself. I guess i never met such a good pathalogical liar. He was like a hex mirror sucking the life out of me, all his misery he put into me. Now that i’m out of the fog, though i see him for what he was, infact for what i first suspected <<== this is why some think narcs are empaths, he sensed i sensed his true nature dissapeared and returned to waste 4 years of my life. I would say their personality is ESTP.

    In truth they hate our personality types we are able to have a sense of inner peace that they shall never experience. It makes me laugh what pathetic existance.

      Peter says August 26, 2014

      It’s crazy but they aren’t actually “lying”, that’s how they slip through all our defenses, and that’s how they can even pass lie detectors easily, even if they committed a crime. I am specifically talking about the (narcissistic) psychopaths here.

      Our intuition does in fact cover every trace of a lie and so we would indeed notice it, that’s why we thought that we can’t be fooled, we were quite confident that we have reached 100% protection in this.

      But this doesn’t work with psychopaths. They use completely different parts of their brain/mind for everything in life, it’s an illness. And when they are telling us something, for them, at that moment, that in fact is the one and only true reality that exists. That’s how they actually percieve it.

      Meaning narcissistic psychopaths have no model of an objective rality in their head, like everyone else does. What they percieve as reality is in constant flux and can be changed at will, in fact they change and rearrange it all the time to suit their needs. I think this is well verified by researchers working with psychopaths.

      When I tried to destroy the narcissist psychopath I was involved with, I had the opportunity to test this phenomenon, again and again I confronted the psychopath with the same objective reality (how things really happened) and she couldn’t comprehend it. She didn’t make this reaction up – she truly had no recollection of how things actually happened.

      I saw a video by a psychopath that explained this from the psychopath’s perspective. It’s truly complete oblivion, they actually do not have the ability to remember things and events that are not useful to them, to the point where they are completely unaware that these things even happened. They are completely unable to identify with their past selves too, to them, they’ve never been there, that was another person.

    INTJgirl4God says July 10, 2017


    I believe you’ve helped me pinpoint what I’ve been stumbling over as I’m assessing my marriage to my NH.

    “After years I’m still in shock because all my life I could pretty much read everyone so easily, could see right through people and so on, except this one narcissist who fooled me in every way possible and to extents which I didn’t even think were possible.”

    I have never met anyone like this before. As an INTJ, the fact that I didn’t see through his duplicity (along with 17 years of brutal gaslighting) has me questioning everything about myself. I have lost my sense of self and it’s quite scary as I consider how to extricate myself from this relationship.

piper says January 7, 2014

I came across in Pia Mellody’s book: “The Intimacy Factor” an interesting point that was connected to your original question. In this book she talks about the abuse of children by their parents – but particularly by separating these abuses into either ‘disempowering’ or ‘falsely empowering’. It seems that the falsely empowered children may become the narcissists.

Here is an example she gives of a type of abuse in childhood that would lead to them becoming a severely dysfunctional adult. (It sounds like my ex, my father and my sister!):

‘Parents immature in regard to the attribute of appropriate immaturity may encourage a child to behave younger than [their] years. When a ten-year-old is having a temper tantrum in the way a two-year-old would, the parents indulge the infantile outpouring, appearing to get from it something like the reward a parent gets in the first years of a child’s life when the child is totally helpless and dependent and the parent the guarantor of life. If the parent continues to seek this reward for being the parent of an infant beyond the time when the child is infantile, the parent can inflict severe damage. The child is encouraged to behave without containment. [They] emerge into adulthood with damaged capacities to contain [their] emotions or appetites. [They] are the kind of adult who does whatever [they] feel like doing. [They] are “in control of being out of control’ – establishing [their] leverage in relationships on the lesson learned in childhood – that [they are] entitled to express [themselves] without age-appropriate containment. One cannot have a relationship with a person like this. All one can do is step out of the way.’

So, it is said that narcissists are made by either having too much attention (falsely empowering) or too little (disempowering) but the latter brings us back to our problem again because that is also what can create the co-dependents, the HSPs, the empaths… So, nothing really answered but more food for thought…

(By the way, if anyone is struggling, I have found Pia Mellody’s books on co-dependency the most helpful theraputic tool out there).

Dawn says January 4, 2014

I think this is an extremely interesting topic, and I’ve often asked myself how in the world I ended up to be such an empathic, caring person in spite of my childhood of severe abuse.

I am an INFJ, too, and I seem to fit the categories of both HSP and Empath. I’m still not sure what all of that means, but it is comforting for me to think that others in the world may share these characteristics, too! I remember growing up always feeling so different, almost as if I were an alien or a foreigner upon this earth. Isn’t it funny that I can remember clearly some of the very thoughts and feelings I had when I was as young as two and three and four years old? I actually can recall the very thoughts I had then. I don’t know whether or not that is unusual, but I can remember thinking even as a child that the world “did not make sense.” I always wanted it to make sense, but it never has.

And even as a child I remember thinking that cruelty of any kind toward a person or an animal was simply a reprehensible idea. The child abuse that I and my brother and sisters experienced was all the more horrific to me because it seemed so utterly unnecessary and sadistic. Why would any human be be so cruel to another human being. I would ask myself. And I still don’t have any answers which satisfy me.

I grew up with, I think, all (or many) of the criteria which can cause a child to turn into an angry, bitter, cold, or narcissistic human being. Death of a parent at a young age, sadistic abuse at the hands of a psychopathic stepfather, neglect and parentification by a narcissistic mother, constant moving around the country (we often moved every 6 months, to the midwest, the east coast, the west coast…..not military moves, but because my SF lost jobs), attending 15 different schools, lack of love, sexual abuse, verbal abuse, emotional abuse, physical abuse, rape by a stranger.

Why, then, am I still after all of these years such a compassionate, deeply loving person? I honestly don’t know. I really don’t. I have not ever wanted to hurt another human being intentionally. Why? I mean, there were times I was filled with deep rage and hatred for my SF, but I could “see” his inner pain. I would get visions of him as a boy being abused by his mother, and as an underage teen fighting in the Korean War, and I would cry and pray for him. Why would a child do that? No one taught me to do that. No one told me I had to do that. Heck, no one paid enough attention to me to even know that I did that.

I seem to have been born this way. I don’t know, but I wonder if our INFJ-ness, our HSP-ness, our empathy, is just a part of who we are. How else to explain why I thought and felt as I did even when I was such a young girl? It seems as if I was always able to “know” or to “sense” the deep, inner pain and anguish in my parents, and for that reason was able to continue to feel for them, to pray for them.

I’ve tried throughout the years to change who I am, to be one of those people who can spout off smarmy, sarcastic comebacks to the a**holes and narcissists of the world, but I just can’t do it. It is not who I am.

As for narcissists, I know 4 intimately, and they can definitely cause pain. They are difficult for me to understand. My 3 siblings and I were all raised in the same household and I think one of them is possibly a narcissist. What caused one of my siblings to “become” narcissistic and what caused me to be nonabusive and empathic? That’s the question, and it’s a great one. I wish I knew.

Perhaps science will someday be able to explain such a thing in terms of brain wiring and chemicals, cortisone and serotonin and oxytocin. Or are our temperaments and empathy-proclivities coded in our DNA? Since I ask myself such questions all the time, I honestly wish that I could be around in 100, 200, 500 years in order to see what the human race has learned about the brain and what role, if any, it plays in psychopathy, narcissism, empathy, social conscience, love, and myriad other personality dynamics.

I am so glad I happened to find your site as I was searching for some information re INFJs. What a great conversation. I really enjoyed reading everyone’s comments. Oh, and I am really interested in what I read in one of the comments about INFJs lacking boundaries. I didn’t even realize what a boundary was until aboue 3 years ago! Can you believe it? In my abusive family, boundaries were nonexistent, so I assumed that my lack of boundaries was merely a learned behavior, but now I am wondering if I would have lacked boundaries even had I been raised in a completely “normal” home. Very, very interesting.

Thank you for listening, and for allowing me to express some of my thoughts. Peace to you.

    Kim Saeed says January 7, 2014


    Stories like yours are what lead me to believe that Narcissists are born the way they are. When we share similar childhood experiences, yet grow up to be empathetic and compassionate, it is hard to see it any other way. Still, I try to remain objective because we all develop different coping mechanisms.

    By the way, you and I share the same personality traits. Regarding your input about brain-wiring, etc., being elements that attract us and keep us ensnared in a Narcissist’s web, you are very much on target. I really enjoyed reading your comment. Feel free to reach out at any time, including via email. I wish I could write more, but I’ve been stricken with a bug that’s been circulating through my son’s daycare…I hope we connect more at a later time 🙂 Peace to you, as well.

      M says January 21, 2015

      Wow! Dawn, I’m reading your post sitting at my desk at work, and it’s as if I wrote it myself. This is me! You’re definitely not alone. It made me cry several times (unfortunate, and I hope nobody at my company notices). Thank you for sharing. All of these posts are intelligent and insightful, to say the least. I’m very glad I found this site. M.

      Michelle says January 24, 2015

      In my journey, I have found the opposite: not nature, but two paths. I went through an internal struggle: and, looking back, I can see it was a struggle against narcissistic abuse to determine whether I would become narcissistic or choose the way of love. Faith was vital in my journey to secure that choice: but the cost was pain. Narcissism protects against the pain: loving empathy means facing the pain.

      I met a narcissist recently too, and had the deep sense of fully grasping why he was the way he was: feeling that we were, in fact, two sides of the same coin – that he was what I might have been if I had not had the resource, through my faith, to choose the more difficult road of love. I felt a profound sense of familial love for him: a sense of his entrapment and vulnerability, resonating with my own, and yet his coping mechanisms of suppression, deception and abuse, alongside my re-entering into the trauma in order to overcome it.

      The intuitive connection was instantaneous and mutual – and, predictably, inevitably, came to an end.

Piper says December 27, 2013

Hello – I came across this page when I was looking up the similarities between INFJs and Co-Dependents but the question you ask is exactly what I have often found myself asking. I am unquestionably an INFJ, an HSP and Co-Dependent in a care-taking way and feel relieved to have made some sense of myself at last – however – I have had so many relationships with people who, I can see in hindsight, were very Narcissistic.

I have wondered if I was Narcissistic/Borderline myself because I certainly suffered narcissistic damage but I obviously don’t fit the criteria and wonder why I want other people to feel happy and comfortable and yet my ex, for example seemed regardless of the pain he was causing me, oftentimes deliberately causing it. However, I totally identified with his neglectful up-bringing and tried to help him see all his defence mechanisms – only to be alternately hated/loved for it…

I digress – sorry! But I haven’t come up with a solution to that question and really want to know if you have!?

    Kim Saeed says December 28, 2013

    Piper, firstly, thank you so much for visiting and commenting!

    You and I share the same personality type: INFJ/HSP, and I am also very empathetic and intuitive. You probably are, too.

    The first part of our personality that usually gets us into trouble is the inability to set healthy boundaries. In fact, we often set no boundaries at all. At first, we don’t mind giving…it’s part of who we are. But, after a while, we come to recognize that NOTHING we do in a relationship with a Narcissist is ever acknowledged or appreciated. When we catch on to the game and start to withdraw, we are met with resistance in the form of our self-image being attacked or being told we are not good enough. Because our reputation means so much to us, we work harder to meet the expectations, which then turns into a vicious cycle because the Narcissist’s expectations change from day-to-day. Examples:
    1. You are so conservative. Why can’t you dress younger? Next day: You look like a hooker. Are you really going out like that?
    2. I was so unlucky to have met you. You’re such a loser. Next day: I can’t live without you. You’re the only one I’ve ever loved.

    Narcissists innately know this about us. They know we will bend over backwards to make the relationship work. It doesn’t matter if we learn their personality and try to help them see why they act the way they do. In fact, it usually will result in a fit of Narcissistic rage.

    We also have an uncommon desire to give people the benefit of the doubt. We believe in the good of all people. They know this, too, and use it to rationalize their abusive behaviors, and we eventually come to accept it as the norm.

    Lastly, just as we are empaths, Narcissists are empaths, too. Only they use their empathy to exploit and take advantage of people, whereas we use our empathy to try and heal people. As blogger friend of mine once said, they are “Bad Empaths”.

    It’s very common, once we educate ourselves about Narcissism, to believe we may have Narcissistic and Borderline traits. We all have a small degree of Narcissism, but we are able to come to grips and make compromises. Narcissists make no compromises. Also, the fact that we are concerned that we may have those negative traits also shows that we can’t really be Narcissistic because they don’t think there is anything wrong with their actions. At all. The Borderline suspicions about yourself come from the fact that you are so used to the crazy-making behaviors due to the constant up-and-down roller-coaster ride, which mimics the highs and lows of borderline personality.

    This is only a quick recap. I hope I’ve answered your question. Please let me know if you’d like further clarification 🙂

      Michelle says January 24, 2015

      Brilliant. Just so amazing to see all the common themes: thank you so much for this blog.

      pekay says January 8, 2016

      I’m a “bad empath” I realize that my early work experience with a super narcissist boss caused me to become like this, I used to be a lot more of a regular empath. I’ve met an empath recently and I never say those things but I think them, and the empath I’ve been having interactions with invades my mind to read my thoughts, and then reacts by trying to please me, but I never say those things out loud…..(1. You are so conservative. Why can’t you dress younger? Next day: You look like a hooker. Are you really going out like that?
      2. I was so unlucky to have met you. You’re such a loser. Next day: I can’t live without you. You’re the only one I’ve ever loved.) <—things like this, I tend to think them in my own head but I don't say it. I'm not quite that bad of a narc, but anyways, I realized that my goal is to make her stop trying to please me or anyone and to just do what she pleases herself, she doesn't seem to have a sense of self……I'm trying to teach her to protect herself from people who would REALLY try to take advantage of her desire to please everyone, but she just invades my thoughts and reacts on it. Maybe I should just stop, and just keep thinking about how much I really like her, I really do, it's just that I'm worried someone will take full advantage of her. I don't know that's the best I can do at explaining what the heck is going on with me right now. I think it's quite rude for her to be so invasive of people's minds too, I never say such things out loud to her, I say positive things out loud, but she's freggin in my head……

Kev says October 20, 2013

Very interesting! Well, I’m not a narcissist, so does that make me the opposite? I had my fill of childhood trauma. Are you sure that it’s one or the other? Although I do have tendencies toward the caring approach. I don’t buy that it’s one or the other.

    Kim Raya says October 20, 2013

    No, not at all. The article specifically refers to the relationship between Narcissists and their victims, who usually have a very specific personality type. That doesn’t mean that everyone who had a traumatic childhood will develop into one or the other, or that caring people are automatically INFJ…Were you on the receiving end of Narcissistic abuse at some point?

      Kev says October 21, 2013

      I believe so, yes.

New Beginnings says October 13, 2013

That is my ultimate goal too. I also want to be able to walk away without feeling anything while they boast. I maybe hope to chuckle silently while they desperately grasp and try to cling to their unwarranted accolades.

New Beginnings says October 13, 2013

“or will they be forgiven for the gift of spiritual transformation their victims often undergo?”
I found this question about the Narcissist’s soul intriguing. It reminds me of something that is taught in the Buddhist religion. When we are on earth, there will always be certain conflicts/struggles that will be placed in our paths, it is up to us to resolve/conquer them. If we are not successful, the issues will continually revisit us until we learn to resolve them in this lifetime or the next (reincarnation).

So maybe the Narcissists are just doing their job!

IDK My ultimate goal is to turn this into something very positive for me.

And if that happens then I can thank him and then he can claim credit for it! A win win situation. 🙂

    navigator1965 says October 13, 2013

    I could not hep but smile at this. Thank you.

    Kim Raya says October 13, 2013

    Thanks for your comment! I am intrigued by the Buddhist religion. It’s on my list to learn more about it.

    The challenging part about the prospect of thanking the Narc (at least for me) would be to overcome my ego when he starts boasting about how great he is and it’s good that I’m finally admitting it. When I can walk away from that without feeling anything, I will know I’ve finally grown 🙂

anupturnedsoul says October 11, 2013

Forgot to say – Great post! And you’re on the right track! Trust your instinct, it’s steering you well!

Nurture not nature. Narcissists do to others what was done to them before they were able to understand it. It is about the stage of development. They are repeating a moment in their early life, and sharing their wound… well, giving it to others to heal for them as they can’t heal it.

    Kim Raya says October 11, 2013

    The part that confuses me is…how one becomes a Narcissist while another becomes a “Protector”, “Nurturer” (____ insert label of the co-dependent). For example, I have wounds from childhood yet, I “developed” into an INFJ. I also have Empath and HSP traits…all of which I’m sure attracted me to my Ex.

      anupturnedsoul says October 12, 2013

      Define your confusion. Focus is the best way to remove confusion. Do you want to know how a Narcissist becomes a Narcissist or do you want to know how come you did not become a Narcissist? Do you want to know how your wounds shaped you or how someone else’s wounds shaped them? Empaths and Narcissists share boundary issues, they both invade others and they both are invaded by others, they have difficulty knowing the difference between self and other. Are these feelings mine or yours. However ‘good’ Empaths still have an ‘I’ to hold on to, a sense of self separate from others, and can develop healthy boundaries with practice. A self and a not self.

      What attracted you to your Ex? Narcissists are very attractive, that is their gift and a curse. Or do you want to know what attracted your Ex to you? The answer to that may not suit an INFJ. Very rare and gentle are INFJs.

        Kim Raya says October 12, 2013

        I was just using myself as an example. I suppose it’s a rather broad topic…I am just curious as to how one group of subjects who had a painful childhood turn into caring, nurturing people, while there is another group (similar childhood) who develop into Narcissists. (Then, they each go on to attract one another later in life to play out unresolved issues, which may have to do with being in the same place vibrationally).

        However, your reply leaves very good food for thought.

        While I have some of the traits of an Empath, some of those might come from being intuitive. I have, however, taken personality tests that label me an INFJ.

        I was attracted to my Ex because he is handsome and told me everything I wanted to hear, and also because I had/have deep-rooted self-esteem issues that carried over from childhood. Even after I realized he was cruel, I stayed because the child in me kept seeking approval. I didn’t realize what he was (Narcissist) until a little over a year ago when I left him. I didn’t know about them in general until I set about discovering what the hell had just happened.

        He was attracted to me because he knew I would make an excellent source of supply, and he was right. Even when I got the balls to leave, I didn’t want to. Luckily, my logic took over long enough to carry me through the process.

        I’d like to use some of your comments/material in my book…but I’d want to credit you, of course. Each of your replies has really broadened my outlook.

        Kim Raya says October 19, 2013

        I hope I didn’t scare you away…I would never use your name or violate confidentiality. Maybe the more appropriate choice of words would have been…I’d like to use some of your ideas, but I wouldn’t want to do so without your permission or appearing to have stole them.

          anupturnedsoul says October 20, 2013

          Sorry, I’m very distracted at the moment and didn’t realise you needed a reply. On my blog I have a copyright page which covers my view. Take what you need, do what you want.

          If my ideas inspire you, you’ll develop those ideas and propagate them and inspire others who will do the same.

          I’m not possessive of my ideas, mainly because someone else somewhere else has probably had a similar one, but also it’s something I learned from Narcissists.

          I appreciate you wanting to be correct and careful. If I want something to be confidential, I don’t share it publicly.

          So no worries. Follow your bliss.

    Kim Raya says October 11, 2013

    Oh, and thanks for your kind comment. Since I focused my blog on Surviving Narcissistic Abuse, it’s really getting a lot of buzz…so you are right 🙂

anupturnedsoul says October 11, 2013

Are you an INFJ?

I do have a theory connecting empathy and Narcissism.

Empathy and Narcissism are both about boundaries between self and other. Most of the Narcissists I know are very empathic, just not in a way which is normally considered as being empathic.

How do you think Narcissists get so deep into their victims? They use a version of empathy. They are ‘bad’ empaths. Everything has a flip side.

    Kim Raya says October 11, 2013

    You blow me away with your comments. Seriously. I never thought about it that way, but now that you mention it, it’s perfectly clear.

    That would make a great title for a book, The Bad Empath 🙂

    Yes, I’m an INFJ…

      Shelly says January 10, 2016

      Technically, by psychological definition, a true narcissist or someone with NPD “lacks” the ability for empathy. That’s how they are so freely and easily motivated to push through every limit and every boundary any person has. I do agree on one point, empaths, INFJ’s, or highly sensitive people are their primary targets. The only thing that we INFJ’s have in common with narcissists is the chameleon behavioral trait, which is a confusing paradox in itself. Of course, INFJ’s do this for a completely different reason than narcissists. INFJ’s intent is not to destroy a person, but to be able to relate and communicate on whomever’s level, how else could we be understood (if that makes any sense).

    seismicgirl says June 12, 2014

    Completely agree! I’m an empath, I’ve come to learn that narcissists have to be highly empathic to do what they do. My empath connection is strongest with other empaths and I’ve had enough relationships with narcissists to know I’m dealing with another empath…just one that uses his insight to harm rather than to love.

      Anonymous says January 16, 2015

      I agree…. I think the difference between empaths and narcissists are that they both have the same wounds – and one responds out of fear and disconnect and self-preservation. They believe inwardly this is the only way, and probably do feel some shame at how they behave if they realize they’ve hurt someone… but they will never stop. My ex husband (a Taurus) and myself (a Scorpio) definitely had the same wounds – however his way of dealing with them was to use me as a shield and lie to me about everything and let me defend him based off the lies he told me that made him look better to others and inadvertently placed me as a scapegoat. In many situations I knew he understood the deeper emotions but he chose to satiate his own instead of considering the feelings of myself, and his own children. To this day, his children are only “playthings” in his mind, and extensions of his fragile ego.

      Myself on the other hand, INTJ, I have worked hard to heal my wounds through therapy and other means. I see we have had the same issues but I dig deep to resolve the wounds and move forward. He would much rather tell a story about how he’s been hurt recently and seduce another strong woman to protect him…… until they date him for 3 years and find out he is such a loser that she had to pay his child support so he didn’t end up in jail….

    Angel says August 24, 2014

    So definitely true. the writings tend to say that narcissists are the oposite to empath but like you i completely dissagree. What they have done is turned this instinct that Es are encouraged to tone down and stifle and instead turned it into a tool.

    Much like a good singer, the vocalist like Pavaroty or Nina Simone will work on their skill grow it and use it for livelihood, sadly Narc’s do this with pure selfishness, while Empaths do this for the greater good.

navigator1965 says October 10, 2013

Exposure to a narcissist can be a profound vehicle towards spiritual grow. Narcissism is the antithesis of spirituality. One attains spirituality when one has conquered and transcended ego.

I let you know what this is like if I ever get there.

    Michelle says January 24, 2015

    I totally agree. Narcissism is the antithesis of love, as I have also concluded.

      Anonymous says June 25, 2015

      This is very insightful.

    kelli says February 23, 2015

    I absolutely believe this to be true I’m INfJ my mother was narcissistic and I’m currently with narcissist number three

    Still swinging says December 8, 2015

    I am in the midst of a divorce. I always knew my wife was selfish, petty and could be vengeful. She was always worried about her public image. I recently discovered she is a narcissist. Then I took a personality test that labeled me infj. Holy crap it was spot on for my thot process. I am just beginning to understand the true dynamics of our relationship and why I stayed for so long. The comments here let me know I am not alone. Thank you

      Kim Saeed says December 8, 2015

      Thank you for sharing…I’m so glad to know that your stopping by here has provided you with helpful insight!

Add Your Reply